GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

After action reports for Commander Europe at War.

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pk867
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Re: GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

Post by pk867 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:07 am

Maybe it would be easier to reduce the French forces strengths.

I do not know about numbers, but when you start as the Allies vs Axis AI the units are reduced. (ie for France)

Reduce the Mech by 2, the INF corps by 1 or 2, GARs by some number 1,2,3, or more. I will let the more knowledgable players

give input. This would drive the France down on MP faster and it would be a big gamble to perform a Dyle in 39'. Or maybe a combination

with moving the forces away from Belgium. The French were allies with Belgium with no threat of DoW because of the League of Nations. You could have one full Strength Mech and INF while the other INF have less strength. Other idea is to make it an option when selecting the game to allow Allies to DoW on neutral minors or not to be able to DoW. (if this can be done)

Just brainstorming...

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Re: GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

Post by Plaid » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:35 am

I had similiar idea some time ago. Western Allies were much less prepared for war, then Germans in September 1939. Probably British and French ground troops (non-garrison ones) should all start at say 5 steps. (Of course France an UK should start with more PPs and MP to pay for this repairs). But I am afraid bonus PPs will be used for some cheesy stuff (e.g. rushing new fighter unit) instead of paying for repairs, so I am not sure here.

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Re: GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

Post by Kragdob » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:50 am

Morris is improving his defesive skills/strategies. We will see France falling in autumn 1940 more and more often.

Axis is weak at start and can either build labs or forces, cannot build both. Especially Luftwaffe is much weaker then UK&French figher forces combined.

I think it would be better if Germans were added +1 FTR and +1 TAC in build queue to be ready for deployment on say, turn 5, 6 or 7.
Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few.

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Re: GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

Post by Plaid » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:28 pm

Kragdob wrote: I think it would be better if Germans were added +1 FTR and +1 TAC in build queue to be ready for deployment on say, turn 5, 6 or 7.
It will be handy in case of Dyle or just massive BEF commitment in France, but can be an overkill in "normal" game, with some upredictable results. It does not look like Germans need additional help in "normal" games, balance might suffer.

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Re: GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

Post by Morris » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:04 pm

Turn 13
Apr 28th 1940 fair


Holland surrender . Liege survived by good luck . Luftwaffe seems suffer heavy casualty especially the Tacs !





Image








Image

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Re: GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

Post by Morris » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:09 pm

Plaid wrote:
Kragdob wrote: I think it would be better if Germans were added +1 FTR and +1 TAC in build queue to be ready for deployment on say, turn 5, 6 or 7.
It will be handy in case of Dyle or just massive BEF commitment in France, but can be an overkill in "normal" game, with some upredictable results. It does not look like Germans need additional help in "normal" games, balance might suffer.

As an Axis player , I 'd love to make these change . but in fact ,I have to agree to Mr Plaid's opinion .

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Re: GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

Post by dagtwo » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:54 pm

What experience has anyone had with pre-positioning an Armour in Cologne, (to take Leige in the case of a first-turn Dyle)? How negatively does it impact the Allies plan?
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Re: GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

Post by GogTheMild » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:11 pm

I've done it. See my comments earlier in this thread. I probably didn't play optimally and lost an ARM in turn 2 :shock: . Paris fell by end of April, but the Axis casualties were very nasty. It is possible that my opponent may AAR it.
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Re: GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

Post by richardsd » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:14 pm

dagtwo wrote:What experience has anyone had with pre-positioning an Armour in Cologne, (to take Leige in the case of a first-turn Dyle)? How negatively does it impact the Allies plan?
it hurts! but so far it seems worth it but haven't tried it against a top player

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Re: GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

Post by richardsd » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:15 pm

Morris wrote:
Plaid wrote:
Kragdob wrote: I think it would be better if Germans were added +1 FTR and +1 TAC in build queue to be ready for deployment on say, turn 5, 6 or 7.
It will be handy in case of Dyle or just massive BEF commitment in France, but can be an overkill in "normal" game, with some upredictable results. It does not look like Germans need additional help in "normal" games, balance might suffer.

As an Axis player , I 'd love to make these change . but in fact ,I have to agree to Mr Plaid's opinion .
this would just end with a lot of very succesfull Sealions!

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Re: GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

Post by dagtwo » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:25 pm

GogTheMild wrote:I've done it. See my comments earlier in this thread. I probably didn't play optimally and lost an ARM in turn 2 :shock: . Paris fell by end of April, but the Axis casualties were very nasty. It is possible that my opponent may AAR it.
Yes, I see your post now. It's just so easy to take Brussels on turn one (one or two air attacks & two MC's and a Corps). Is there someway to increase the risk of failure for the Allies? Like moving one of the MC's further away?
Hex grids Rule!

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Re: GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:45 pm

If we alter anything due to the Dyle then we should NOT alter the OOB's. Those are pretty well balanced for normal games.

If you don't want the Dyle to be harsher on the Allies regarding the penalties then you just make sure a turn 1 Dyle is not easy to do.

What we could do is to rearrange the Allied units e. g. the UK and French fighters to they are not within range of Brussels. Some French corps and mech units could be placed a bit further away from the Border to Belgium so they can't get to Brussels and also destroy the Belgian unit south of Brussels on turn 1.

This way you have to use turn 1 as the Allies to position your units for a Dyle so you can do a turn 2 Dyle. Germany can more easily defend against a turn 2 Dyle since they can send units to the west on turn 1 and at least on turn 2 (like the entire Luftwaffe and several land units). So they can punish the Allied units taking Brussels. The Allies won't get Antwerp and Liege on turn 2 so the Germans can get both on turn 3 unless they get mud weather.

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Re: GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:47 pm

Such a chance doesn't need a code change. Only a change of the 1939.scn file.

There is little risk of bad effects on the Allies if the Germans do a blitzkrieg attack. A blitzkrieg attack will rarely happen on turn 1 since most Axis units are in Poland. The blitz will start on turn 2 and then the Allied units have already been able to redeploy.

I think this solution is the simplest. No impact on normal game balance and a much less chance for a successful turn 1 Dyle.

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Re: GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

Post by Crazygunner1 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:19 pm

I am gonna have to agree with Morris on this one

With the changes made to the terrain in Belgium and Holland makes it almost impossible to Blitz, no room to manouver wich means that all offensives will get bogged down. That together with France perfect setup for the execution of Dyle in one turn makes it almost impossible disrupt it

The Dyle plan is now the ultimate defense and game winner for the allies, it has surely disrupted the balance of the game :cry:

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Re: GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

Post by Crazygunner1 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:21 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:If we alter anything due to the Dyle then we should NOT alter the OOB's. Those are pretty well balanced for normal games.

If you don't want the Dyle to be harsher on the Allies regarding the penalties then you just make sure a turn 1 Dyle is not easy to do.

What we could do is to rearrange the Allied units e. g. the UK and French fighters to they are not within range of Brussels. Some French corps and mech units could be placed a bit further away from the Border to Belgium so they can't get to Brussels and also destroy the Belgian unit south of Brussels on turn 1.

This way you have to use turn 1 as the Allies to position your units for a Dyle so you can do a turn 2 Dyle. Germany can more easily defend against a turn 2 Dyle since they can send units to the west on turn 1 and at least on turn 2 (like the entire Luftwaffe and several land units). So they can punish the Allied units taking Brussels. The Allies won't get Antwerp and Liege on turn 2 so the Germans can get both on turn 3 unless they get mud weather.
Sounds good and realistic :)

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Re: GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:40 pm

Here is an example of a revised Allied initial setup in the 1939 scenario:
Image

This is how it could look like after the Allied turn 1:
Image

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Re: GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:46 pm

With this setup change it's impossible for the Allies to take Brussels on turn 1 (unless you get really crazy combat results). All the units you can get on Brussels are a mech and garrison attack. No air units can inflict damage on the Brussels unit. The strategic bomber will inflict damage on the production and not the unit. The fighters have to rebase to get within range.

Germany can't attack west on turn 1 so the Allies can with the revised setup build a pretty decent defense line against a German blitz through Belgium. So a turn 2 Axis blitz will face a decent defense. This means the Allies won't suffer in normal games with the revised setup.

If you want to try the revised 1939.scn file you can PM me so I can send you the updated file.
Last edited by Peter Stauffenberg on Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:58 pm

People wonder why we don't flag Belgium and Holland as pro-Allied in the game. Then it's not possible to DOW these countries for the Allies. If we do that then the Germans can do a nasty trick of just keeping these countries neutral for the entire duration of the game. This means the Allies will only be able to invade Germany from France and there you have the Siegfried line. Just put German mechs in each of these fortresses and the Allies will never get through. Germany could ignore the west and just go for a 1940 invasion of Russia. Or ignore the west and clear the Balkans in 1940 and do a 1941 Barbarossa.

The same issue was with Poland. It was Pro-Allied initially. Germany could simply keep Poland neutral forever and have as a buffer against Russia. Then the Germans could crush the French and British and maybe even invade USA. They would know the Russians could only invade Germany from the Sea and not via Poland. Germany can more easily defend against Russia in the mountains of Romania and Hungary if they can't be outflanked in Poland

So the best choice is to make all neutral powers completely neutral so they can be DOW'ed by both sides.

Never underestimate how clever players can be to exploit limitations, weaknesses in games. :P If there is something to be exploited then players will find it.

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Re: GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:12 am

Crazygunner1 wrote:I am gonna have to agree with Morris on this one

With the changes made to the terrain in Belgium and Holland makes it almost impossible to Blitz, no room to manouver wich means that all offensives will get bogged down. That together with France perfect setup for the execution of Dyle in one turn makes it almost impossible disrupt it

The Dyle plan is now the ultimate defense and game winner for the allies, it has surely disrupted the balance of the game :cry:
I don't agree that the Axis can't blitz on turn 2. I've posted before a possible way for the Axis to actually get Brussels on turn 2. If they want an even better chance you blitz on turn 3. You have a 75% chance of fair weather then.

When Brussels falls on the same turn as the blitz the Allies get a morale loss and can't get deep into Belgium. The terrain changes will not affect the Allied defense since the Germans overrun the Albert line on turn 1 of the blitz.

The only time the terrain change will hamper the Axis is if the Allies do a Dyle and they don't have enough forces in the west to get into Liege and Antwerp before the Allies can get there.

With the suggested revised 1939 setup for the Allies you remove the turn 1 Dyle threat. A turn 2 Dyle threat is easier to deal with since you have the Luftwaffe in the west and quite a few land forces too. Poland will fall on turn 2 and you an respond on turn 3 in force. You have a 75% chance of fair weather. Hague will fall for sure with 2 tactical bomber attacks + 3 land attacks.

The map in Belgium now is actually more accurate and historical. Liege was a formidable obstacle due to Eben Emael and the Albert canal. So the Germans had to use a glider paradrop to destroy the fortress. The Dyle plan was to get to the Albert canal and defend behind there. If the Allies manages to do that then they have succeded and the war turns into a WW1 attrition.

We also have to remember that the German success in Case Yellow was not given. It was the surprise from the Sichelschnitt plan that made it possible. Both sides believed the German attack would be contained and a war of attrition would happen. Most games weaken the French more than historical to be able to simulate Case Yellow. It's very hard to simulate in a historical way. The French had a huge army against the Germans. Normally the Germans should not be able to break through it, but they did due to the surprise by going through the Ardennes with their armored units.

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Re: GS 3.0 Plaid Axis vs Morris Allies

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:23 am

Another possible minor thing we could alter is the hex 1x NE of Liege. It now belongs to Holland due to the Maastrict Dutch area between Belgium and Germany. If we altered the owner to Belgium then Germany could more easily reach Liege and Antwerp in 1 turn from Germany without having to DoW Holland to get there. So Holland could remain neutral in 1939 and Germany would still have quite decent front line against the Allies if they do a Dyle attack.

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