Freaking Anarchy

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76mm
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Freaking Anarchy

Post by 76mm » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:46 am

Really getting tired of the anarchy rules...had a row of five hoplites holding a line on a hill, waiting for enemy pikemen. Three of five anarchy charged off the hill, got slaughtered, the remaining two are soon to go. Why bother trying to hold a hill?

Xiggy
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Post by Xiggy » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:15 am

The current anarchy rules are a bit backward, Superior fanatics are less likely to anarchy charge than than average undrilled. That is backeards. Same will be true of superior undrilled knights. The crusader vs saracen battles in S&S may be scewed because of this.

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Post by davouthojo » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:24 am

I am fresh from a painful anarchy experience, so can feel your pain! In my recent game vs ianiow, my Illyrians decided to charge his impact foot one at a time - he is mopping up the last remnants of my army now.
On the other hand, I think that the best players are able to master anarchy, the same as they master other aspects of the game. It inspired me to do a quick brain dump yesterday on controlling anarchy:

1) Screen with lighter troops
Prevent enemy lights coming within range
Position troops to clear in front of your troops before you touch them so they won't be tempted

2) Hold your anarchy-prone troops back
Especially the most expensive knights or cataphracts, they can turn battles, but not is they are frittered away
Tip: You can turn troops off the front line away or sideways to reduce the risk of anarchy
Time your approach...e.g, be 3 hexes away at the start of your move, so that he will anarchy not you
Park MF in cover, just to prevent them charging

3) Expect anarchy
Don't defend hills or rivers with anarchy prone troops - whether realistic or not, I always get into trouble doing this!
Don't let your plan rest on one unit not going into anarchy
Don't rely on a very subtle battleplan if you have mostly impact troops - this was my undoing. I did not charge in immediately we were in range, I tried to wait for my Illyrian's flanking moves to develop, by the time they were in position, my front line had disappeared.

4) Touch units at risk of anarchy early
If there is one key unit that is at risk of anarchy, touch it first. At least you can react - follow-up if it is successful or charge the whole line in to save it. Don't wait until the end of the turn when you can do nothing

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Post by batesmotel » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:36 am

Xiggy wrote:The current anarchy rules are a bit backward, Superior fanatics are less likely to anarchy charge than than average undrilled. That is backeards. Same will be true of superior undrilled knights. The crusader vs saracen battles in S&S may be scewed because of this.
This is not true. Quality re-rolls should not apply to anarchy charge rolls per the TT rules and I believe this is how the computer version works as well.

Chris
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Post by Morbio » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:57 pm

davouthojo wrote:I am fresh from a painful anarchy experience, so can feel your pain! In my recent game vs ianiow, my Illyrians decided to charge his impact foot one at a time - he is mopping up the last remnants of my army now.
On the other hand, I think that the best players are able to master anarchy, the same as they master other aspects of the game. It inspired me to do a quick brain dump yesterday on controlling anarchy:

1) Screen with lighter troops
Prevent enemy lights coming within range
Position troops to clear in front of your troops before you touch them so they won't be tempted

2) Hold your anarchy-prone troops back
Especially the most expensive knights or cataphracts, they can turn battles, but not is they are frittered away
Tip: You can turn troops off the front line away or sideways to reduce the risk of anarchy
Time your approach...e.g, be 3 hexes away at the start of your move, so that he will anarchy not you
Park MF in cover, just to prevent them charging

3) Expect anarchy
Don't defend hills or rivers with anarchy prone troops - whether realistic or not, I always get into trouble doing this!
Don't let your plan rest on one unit not going into anarchy
Don't rely on a very subtle battleplan if you have mostly impact troops - this was my undoing. I did not charge in immediately we were in range, I tried to wait for my Illyrian's flanking moves to develop, by the time they were in position, my front line had disappeared.

4) Touch units at risk of anarchy early
If there is one key unit that is at risk of anarchy, touch it first. At least you can react - follow-up if it is successful or charge the whole line in to save it. Don't wait until the end of the turn when you can do nothing
As many of you will know I used to be one of the most vociferous opponents of anarchy. A while back we kicked up such a fuss we got the game changed so that anarchy happens less often. I am now comfortable with the current position. A lot of this is because of the the good suggestions Davouthojo has posted and because of my use of commanders. Putting a commander next to (maybe near) impact troops does make a significant difference too.

I certainly think too much anarchy is bad from a game perspective, but may be perceived as more realistic from a historical simulation perspective. e.g. Harold's troops charging down the hill after the fleeing Normans at Hastings. Does the game have too much? IMO it's about right now. One thing to bear in mind is how often on average this happens. Is it happening with most units in most/all games or have you just had a particularly bad bit of random luck. Anarch should happen from time to time, it will occur more than once in a game sometimes and you may higher numbers of anarchy should happen less, but it will happen.

I do feel your pain, I've been there, but look on the bright side... you lost the game... Harold lost his life! :D

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Post by CheerfullyInsane » Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:06 pm

batesmotel wrote:
Xiggy wrote:The current anarchy rules are a bit backward, Superior fanatics are less likely to anarchy charge than than average undrilled. That is backeards. Same will be true of superior undrilled knights. The crusader vs saracen battles in S&S may be scewed because of this.
This is not true. Quality re-rolls should not apply to anarchy charge rolls per the TT rules and I believe this is how the computer version works as well.

Chris
Re-rolls don't apply to CMT's in the PC version either.
Well.......Least not according to the help-file :wink:

On a more general note, I think Morbio is right.
There seems to be a good balance in the anarchy-charges. One knows it can happen, but it usually doesn't overrule your gameplan.
Usually, mind you. :mrgreen:
It is incredibly annoying when your troops decided to leave their comfy hill to slug it out with the enemy, but think of it this way;
These are troops who have spent all morning psyching themselves up to fight an enemy, and now you want them to hold?
I think this is one of those instances where the wish of a game-player for total control over his troops differs a little from the real-world.

Lars
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76mm
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Post by 76mm » Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:56 pm

Davouthojo, thanks for the tips, but two comments:

1) you say to treat "anarchy prone" troops especially carefully. I have the biggest problem with hoplites and phalanxes, who were drilled not to do this sort of thing. I don't really mind if the barbarians or cats do this alot, but I would expect very different behavior from drilled hoplites, etc.

2) IMO a game mechanic which makes it impossible to defend a hill (like anarchy in this game) is broken.

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Post by ianiow » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:17 pm

76mm wrote:2) IMO a game mechanic which makes it impossible to defend a hill (like anarchy in this game) is broken.
This sound like a bad thing until you come up against an opponent that lines all his troops up against a river or on a hill and refuses to come down and fight. At least with the current system you can tempt a unit to anarchy and rush off the hill, then it is up to the 'hill sitter' if he wants to support that unit or keep the rest of his troops on the hill. No anarchy would mean that one player has no choice but to charge across the river or up the hill at a big disadvantage.

In short, anarchy penalises boring defensive players! :lol:

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Post by Xiggy » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:19 pm

I have elephants, chariots and lancers anarchy charging through a medium foot screen disordering them every game I play with the Indians. Considering the fact that except for the elephants, they probably cant see what they are charging. It is a bit of a surprise. I rarely have my galaition close order foot anarchy charge. But heavy foot seem relatively stable. The anarchy rules for mounted have not been altered. I think only foot were effected. I do not remember if the change effected HF only or MF and HF.

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Post by batesmotel » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:27 pm

Xiggy wrote:I have elephants, chariots and lancers anarchy charging through a medium foot screen disordering them every game I play with the Indians. Considering the fact that except for the elephants, they probably cant see what they are charging. It is a bit of a surprise. I rarely have my galaition close order foot anarchy charge. But heavy foot seem relatively stable. The anarchy rules for mounted have not been altered. I think only foot were effected. I do not remember if the change effected HF only or MF and HF.
Elephants should not anarchy charge since they are not shock troops. If they are doing so in your games then this should be reported in the tech support forum as a bug. The HCh and lancers should be subject to anarchy charges and you need to plan accordingly when using them. If you don't want them to charge this turn, keep them out of charge range of enemy BGs.

Chris
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Post by TheGrayMouser » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:33 pm

Xiggy wrote:I have elephants, chariots and lancers anarchy charging through a medium foot screen disordering them every game I play with the Indians. Considering the fact that except for the elephants, they probably cant see what they are charging. It is a bit of a surprise. I rarely have my galaition close order foot anarchy charge. But heavy foot seem relatively stable. The anarchy rules for mounted have not been altered. I think only foot were effected. I do not remember if the change effected HF only or MF and HF.

I think this is a matter of perception as well as game mechanics. Most player are more likly to keep their heavies tight in the center of the map, and thus often have a leader(s) in range to suppress anarchy . Mediums (and as they are cheaper and if you have a lot of them) tend to be more spread out, more likly to be out of command range etc... Also , as they move further , they will often be in range of more enemies that they want to charge into ie test for anarchy...

I do kinda agree w 76mm re what constitues shock troops that need to test... This has come up before multiple times,. My wish list solution (wishy cause i know it aint happening as it is not in the TT) would be to add an additional unit attribute called impetuous. Thus a Alexendrian pike unit wont anarchy but a Swiss pikeman will need to test( because it has the attribute impetuous)

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Post by Xiggy » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:34 pm

With FOW on, should you charge troops u cant see? Lancers and chariots charging through MF bows seems odd if u have fog turned on. If it is turned then it is ok.

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Post by TheGrayMouser » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:41 pm

Xiggy wrote:With FOW on, should you charge troops u cant see? Lancers and chariots charging through MF bows seems odd if u have fog turned on. If it is turned then it is ok.

Your own troops dont block your (the players) LOS (although they do block shooting)

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Post by batesmotel » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:42 pm

Xiggy wrote:With FOW on, should you charge troops u cant see? Lancers and chariots charging through MF bows seems odd if u have fog turned on. If it is turned then it is ok.
Your own troops will not block your shock troops from seeing enemy in order to avoid testing for anarchy charges with FOW turned on, e.g. you cannot hide lancers behind a solid line of your MF bow or of your LH to avoid them testing for anarchy charges if there are enemy within charge range that they would otherwise be obligated to charge.

Chris
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Xiggy
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Post by Xiggy » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:44 pm

OK. I am pretty sure elephants are anarchy charging as well. But I need to see it again to be sure.

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Post by deeter » Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:50 pm

I've never seen an elephant anarchy charge. Shouldn't be allowed.

Deeter

Xiggy
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Post by Xiggy » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:27 pm

I may very well be mistaken. I have been playing games with the indian armies lately, I have seen a lot of anarchy charges that disrupted my lines.

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Post by TheGrayMouser » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:40 pm

Xiggy wrote:I may very well be mistaken. I have been playing games with the indian armies lately, I have seen a lot of anarchy charges that disrupted my lines.

Dont mistake anarchy charges for oddities happening when playing the game intoxicated , especially pink elephants anarchy charging :D

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Post by jamespcrowley » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:54 pm

In a very recent LOEG battle I had a superior, although undrilled, Cataphract Field commander anarchy charge through his own medium foot, to attack, I think, an enemy light foot BG. Naturally it disrupted the MF and put itself completely out of position. Probably not the reason I lost the game but it didn't help and really shouldn't happen.

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Post by TheGrayMouser » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:59 pm

jimcrowley wrote:In a very recent LOEG battle I had a superior, although undrilled, Cataphract Field commander anarchy charge through his own medium foot, to attack, I think, an enemy light foot BG. Naturally it disrupted the MF and put itself completely out of position. Probably not the reason I lost the game but it didn't help and really shouldn't happen.
Not saying this is good or bad but i think is in line with the TT (and thus intended by slitherine) in that shock troops will anarchy thru their own toops , with the exception that they wont anarchy thru fellow shock troops) I am guessing your medium was a light spear? Someone please correct me if im wrong)

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