BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

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pipfromslitherine
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Re: BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

Post by pipfromslitherine » Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:28 pm

You are definitely right about the scale, this is by design. The visuals are stylised quite a lot - in part to make the game more approachable, but it also helps to underline the abstracted nature of the model (e.g. those tanks are NOT right next to each other, they are (say) 100 yards apart :) ).

I imagine we wanted to Tigers to look suitably intimidating :).

Cheers

Pip

Interstate40
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Re: BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

Post by Interstate40 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:28 am

Pip - I'd thought I'd add my two cents on this extension. Having read extensively on combat on the Eastern Front (like most folks here I guess) I think there are some potential major changes required to reflect the terror, brutality and desperation of combat in the eastern theatre. It was quite different to the west in many respects.

Some things to consider:
* Many units would equate surrender with death after 1941. Russian prisoners taken in the first year of combat froze, starved or were murdered and this was used effectively as propaganda by political commissars to dissuade Russian troops from surrendering as well as kill many German prisoners. Upshot - certain units should never surrender. They will retreat if they can but not surrender.
* Some units should never break. SS and Russian political elite units would often fight to the death. These type of units would rarely surrender as SS units surrendering would usually be killed (their SS blood group tattoos gave them away too), and same for Russian commissars. In BA currently, Waffen SS units do not seem to have extra moral, but in real life they'd be used to attack and keep attacking until destroyed which was why they were so effective in counterattacks and 'fire brigade' actions. These units should be impervious to losing moral or should lose it much more slowly than other units.
* Punishment battalion troops would also be required to advance until eliminated, as returning to their lines (certainly for the Russians) meant fire from their own side or execution by commissars. These units would easily break but they won't retreat.
* Wave attacks - there are many accounts of walls of Russian infantry falling upon German lines. Often plied with vodka or in fear from fire from their own commanders, these waves would keep attacking until completely destroyed. Some nice audio 'urrah' samples would be neat too when a large scale attack occurs.
* Tank riders - units should be able hitch rides on tanks. But this should expose them to brutal damage if the tank was fired upon (similar to mortar damage maybe)
* Poor communications - it's easy in BA to overcome the poor comms of badly equipped tanks as we simply move them about as we please. Why not have some armour go "off reservation" for the non-AI side. Armour sometimes stops responding to non-AI orders as the crew is either out of contact or ignores order entirely. This would be similar to "Bogged down" or perhaps even better, the AI takes over the tank and for a period of time (1-2 turns) and you have no control of how it behaves. Waves of early Russian tanks, including T34's and KV's were destroyed through bad command and control, and the Germans overcame terrible odds and inferior armour through excellent C&C.
* Entrenchments - Russians were experts in defense, able to turn the smallest bridgehead or position into a major problem through expert digging and hiding. In BA one of the biggest weaknesses is the inability to successfully entrench (which means say 6-12 inches deep - not a full trench but enough to not get killed when not firing). I'm not sure how many turns would be required to equate to more cover ratings, but if a unit stayed put for more than say 2 turns they should be given better cover. 5 turns should make them very difficult to see or hit.
* Pre-prepared defensive positions (ie before the game starts) should make in impossible for direct arms fire to see or hit troops in prepared positions if they are not shooting. Bunkers, trenches and so on kept troops safe from direct fire, something that BA ignores largely if troops have been identified. Close assault should be required to dislodge infantry from prepared defenses, but if the entrenched troops fire back they can be hit in that turn only.
* Smoke - I think other folks have discussed. This was used extensively and was crucial for tanks withdrawing, and artillery should be able to deploy smoke with a 2 turn delay.
* Immobilisation - as above. This was a critical means of slowing down giants like the KV and KV2 by outgunned German AT units. Am not sure how the moral of the crew should be impacted, perhaps this could eventually be linked to whether any other friendly units are within LOS. If they aren't, the crew's moral would take a hit. If they are, the crew will fight on. Am not sure how long it would take to repair immobilised vehicles but I'd have thought no repair crews would come into a hot fire zone to fix an immobilised vehicle (they would come after the battle has passed or at night, taking back even knocked out tanks to repair and refit or salvage for parts).
* Mud of course. Trucks should be useless in mud and all movement should be halved.
* Winter - houses were life or death objectives when it was -30 degrees. All houses should have much greater tactical value, and AI should go for houses at all times in winter scenarios. Oftentimes local actions raged around Russian villages simply because being in a house at nightfall meant units stood a decent chance of surviving the night. Being in open ground at night was a death sentence.
* Winter movement - Infantry movement over open ground was extremely slow without skis, and for armour often impossible. Ski units would be cool, and in fact having some units 'winter equipped' versus not would mean they could move faster, fight better (with higher moral) and stay in open ground. Those without would be reluctant to move or try and stay close to urban positions.

That's all I've got. Easiest to do I'd think would be morale/retreat mechanics changes for certain units (elite/SS, punishment battalion), add smoke (basically adds LOS barriers but no cover), immobilisation (same effect as bogged down for certain hits), and some tinkering with entrenchment/defenses rules. Winter and autumn mud would make for some interesting variations to unit choices too.

Looking forward to this release, guys.
Last edited by Interstate40 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

Interstate40
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Re: BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

Post by Interstate40 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:34 am

Oh I missed one - units going 'berserk' and charging. SS and elite Russian units should have a chance of going bezerk and charging the nearest enemy unit until completely destroyed. There would be a random chance that certain types of units when under fire, as their morale drops, could actually go nuts and attack instead of breaking. These units would ignore orders (the AI taking over) and simply charge until the enemy unit nearest was destroyed or they are completely eliminated. If they succeed they stay put and return to their normal state.

Postscript Der - see this has already been discussed in terms of Japanese banzai here viewtopic.php?f=104&t=19767 Sounds spot on...
Last edited by Interstate40 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

pipfromslitherine
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Re: BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

Post by pipfromslitherine » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:35 pm

All good stuff! Most of these are on our list already, so it looks like we are on the right track :). One thing to note is that currently SS units (like most 'elite' units such as Rangers etc) have higher morale than normal infantry. I think 150 vs 100. But you are correct that in the Eastern Front theatre we might need to alter some of the ways morale works to account for the brutal conditions.

Cheers

Pip

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Re: BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

Post by Richcat » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:59 pm

Hi Pip
I do remember J2D with help of Merr working up "Banzai and Surrender" which are in J2D's Pacific campaigns if that would be of help with the "Berserk" and morale :x ideas.
viewtopic.php?f=104&t=19767
Cheers
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Interstate40
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Re: BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

Post by Interstate40 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:48 am

Richcat wrote:Hi Pip
I do remember J2D with help of Merr working up "Banzai and Surrender" which are in J2D's Pacific campaigns if that would be of help with the "Berserk" and morale :x ideas.
Yep - this logic sounds perfect for Eastern Front... Can't wait!

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Re: BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

Post by pipfromslitherine » Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:03 pm

You can check out a sneak peak of some actual work that Andrew has completed in BA2! See the BA 2 development forum here:

viewforum.php?f=221

Cheers

Pip

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Re: BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

Post by LandMarine47 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:45 am

Have you guys given thoughts on what platforms it will come out? PC first then iOS later? Becuase I'm DYING for an eastern front. And will it span the entire war from 1941-45? And what will DLCs look like?

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Re: BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

Post by pipfromslitherine » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:35 pm

LandMarine47 wrote:Have you guys given thoughts on what platforms it will come out? PC first then iOS later? Becuase I'm DYING for an eastern front. And will it span the entire war from 1941-45? And what will DLCs look like?
All we can really say is that we will be aiming to release on all platforms at launch. Other details are still Classified (meaning the designers don't tell me anything... :cry: )

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Re: BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

Post by LandMarine47 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:00 pm

When I played the D-Day spec ops mod a very unique action I noticed. Named "Isolated" your men lose a considerable amount of morale. Will this command be associated with BA2? And will it be associated with weather/combat situations where even death can happen? And will you be able to merge injured units to make one?

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Re: BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

Post by pipfromslitherine » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:36 pm

LandMarine47 wrote:When I played the D-Day spec ops mod a very unique action I noticed. Named "Isolated" your men lose a considerable amount of morale. Will this command be associated with BA2? And will it be associated with weather/combat situations where even death can happen? And will you be able to merge injured units to make one?
Heh - cool! Iain must have been experimenting with an effect. I don't think we would generally make use of it, as it could be painful to have to pre-plan every move to prevent penalties.

We definitely plan to have weather/time of day have direct effects on troop morale and effectiveness.

Cheers

Pip

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Re: BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

Post by LandMarine47 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:38 pm

Also when the soviets where in their most desperate situation they issued "Not one step back" does this mean the AI will control a unit that will shoot your men but you can't shoot them? And when I played the Crete Mod there was A VP on the last mission where you had to get 7 units in but they disappear (no casualties) will this apply to routing troops where they merely disappear when they cross a certian barrier and show up as casualties. And Russians should have Mass Charges where morale is doesn't exist for 1 or 2 turns. Some men will be "melee only" because lack of supplies while others would pick up their fallen comrades rifles. Perhaps this is the beginning of picking up weapons from allies and enemies alike. What really disappointed me about BA was the lack of realistics. Like when an MG is in a bulker then and infantry merely shoots at the bunker killing them. I mean a MG isn't ganna expose himself like that. Now assaults/grenades is a different story but trenches and better realistics should be added like in the Non combat phase (enemy turn) he can't fire back. And tank charges should be added. At Kursk the T-34s charged the superior Germans and when up close fired causing many casualties on both sides. And fights to the death should be added where units merely don't surrender and morale is drastically changed. In cities the enemy would often fight with one unit on different floors. Does this mean more than one unit can fit in a room and engage enemy's with melee?

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Re: BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

Post by LandMarine47 » Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:42 am

In BA you use credits to purchase units. Maybe we can extend this. I call them "Perk Points" in which for a certain number of these points. You can upgrade your units. Such as units having more ammunition, tanks having more speed, units already promoted etc... With these point you can turn raw recruits into battle hardened veterans. You should also have carry over units from previous missions allowing you to keep your unit.(Your still ganna need to pay for him!)

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Re: BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

Post by bruce1944 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:08 am

OH BOY OH BOY OH BOY>>>YAHOOO!!!!

LandMarine47
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Re: BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

Post by LandMarine47 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:20 am

Quick question. When Beta comes out will Slitherine be uploading Gameplay on your Youtube Channel or wait until you have trailers set up

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Re: BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

Post by GottaLove88s » Sat May 18, 2013 8:52 am

Hi Pip!

Please build in extra extendability for the BA2 engine...

Things I'm discovering BA1 can't do, but would be really handy (please)
- different types of water tile (beach, shallow, medium, deep) with limitations on ships that can access them. Land units wouldn't automatically die in beach water
- different classes of 'transport' and 'can be carried'. In BA v1 it's a simple toggle, on or off, but it would be great to make this 0=can't transport, 1=carries infantry, 2=carries vehicles, 3=carries anything... So we could create LCTs (for Pacific mods) or troop trains to bring tanks to the front (for Barbarossa)
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

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Re: BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

Post by k9mike » Sun May 19, 2013 6:49 pm

Ahhhhhh Trains...Use to love them in Blitzkrieg. :)

LandMarine47
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Re: BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

Post by LandMarine47 » Sun May 19, 2013 7:32 pm

Can we get a sneak peek on what you guys have :) or is it classified :(

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Re: BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

Post by pipfromslitherine » Mon May 20, 2013 1:20 am

We released a sneak peek of the new editor functionality. More will be coming, but we have a lot of things happening at the moment! :)

Cheers

Pip

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Re: BA 2 - Eastern Front Development Forum

Post by GottaLove88s » Mon May 20, 2013 2:29 am

pipfromslitherine wrote:We released a sneak peek of the new editor functionality. More will be coming, but we have a lot of things happening at the moment! :)

Cheers

Pip
Thanks Pip... Where's that? I'd love to take a look? :D
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347

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