Locarnus Addon 2024-02, for Grand Campaign East, Battlefield Europe and Afrika Korps

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Locarnus
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Re: Locarnus Addon 2023-09, for Grand Campaign, Battlefield Europe and Afrika Korps

Post by Locarnus »

goose_2 wrote: Tue Sep 12, 2023 3:17 pm What is the goal for a playthrough of the Grand Campaign?
[...]
If so what difficulty?

I am reluctant as it would be a massive time commitment, but at the same time intrigued if I can be given the proper motivation on how to make it interesting/challenging for me.
Well, seeing Richard Martin going through with his deducter + (many and hard hitting) house rules:

Perhaps for Addon + GC (39 only), Rommel is not enticing enough for expert players, even as a first time baseline?
Maybe the selectable "FM Rommel" difficulty + "reform units" would make it more interesting, in addition to the "rule of 1"?
Still with a succession in mind, passing the torch to someone else eg after GC 39.

bondjamesbond wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 9:28 am Image
Seeing that BT, is there a PzC mod including Soviets vs Japanese?
longer, alternative "PG" like Campaign new version 0.34 from 2011.08.02 (another bugfix & now in zip format)
bondjamesbond
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Re: Locarnus Addon 2023-09, for Grand Campaign, Battlefield Europe and Afrika Korps

Post by bondjamesbond »

Locarnus wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 2:43 pm
goose_2 wrote: Tue Sep 12, 2023 3:17 pm What is the goal for a playthrough of the Grand Campaign?
[...]
If so what difficulty?

I am reluctant as it would be a massive time commitment, but at the same time intrigued if I can be given the proper motivation on how to make it interesting/challenging for me.
Well, seeing Richard Martin going through with his deducter + (many and hard hitting) house rules:

Perhaps for Addon + GC (39 only), Rommel is not enticing enough for expert players, even as a first time baseline?
Maybe the selectable "FM Rommel" difficulty + "reform units" would make it more interesting, in addition to the "rule of 1"?
Still with a succession in mind, passing the torch to someone else eg after GC 39.

bondjamesbond wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 9:28 am Image
Seeing that BT, is there a PzC mod including Soviets vs Japanese?
https://panzercorps.fandom.com/wiki/Bat ... alkhin_Gol
There is no separate mod, but there are maps in which there is a Soviet-Japanese skirmish
https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26979
https://latbalt-xtrainz.forum2x2.ru/t34-topic
https://latbalt-xtrainz.forum2x2.ru/t29-topic
02. Battle of Lake Hassan 1938(against Japan)
03. Battle of Khalkhin Gol 1939(against Japan)
https://latbalt-xtrainz.forum2x2.ru/t158-topic
http://jeffoot.freeboxos.fr:41226/share ... D_4LBcANz/
https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewto ... &start=160


Image
http://historykpvo.narod2.ru/

ImageImageImage
https://www.techinsider.ru/weapon/12889 ... -razvedka/
https://en.topwar.ru/74475-boevoy-avtoz ... amova.html
https://mynickname.com/id73473
Image
Locarnus
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Re: Locarnus Addon 2023-09, for Grand Campaign, Battlefield Europe and Afrika Korps

Post by Locarnus »

Fascinating read about the Kamov A-7 autogyro, thank you for sharing!
I did not know that the Soviet Union had an operational predecessor to modern helicopters even before 1940!
Even comparing favorably to the Fieseler Storch.


On the Addon compatibility front, i made some significant progress.
Using the "theater" mechanic, I was able to reduce clutter for the purchasing and upgrade screen of the Grand Campaign (tropical versions removed) and Afrika Korps (non-tropical versions removed).

I'm also trying out an "ambush/camo" switch for semi-armored tank destroyers.
Hopefully making them more viable choices, even if it is very situational.
It also makes them an upgrade option from the AT class.
Image


Next Addon version (2023-10) should extend basic Grand Campaign compatibility all the way to 1945 East and thus make a complete GC playthrough possible.
Image
longer, alternative "PG" like Campaign new version 0.34 from 2011.08.02 (another bugfix & now in zip format)
bondjamesbond
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Re: Locarnus Addon 2023-09, for Grand Campaign, Battlefield Europe and Afrika Korps

Post by bondjamesbond »

Locarnus wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 10:14 pm
Fascinating read about the Kamov A-7 autogyro, thank you for sharing!
I did not know that the Soviet Union had an operational predecessor to modern helicopters even before 1940!
Even comparing favorably to the Fieseler Storch.


On the Addon compatibility front, i made some significant progress.
Using the "theater" mechanic, I was able to reduce clutter for the purchasing and upgrade screen of the Grand Campaign (tropical versions removed) and Afrika Korps (non-tropical versions removed).

I'm also trying out an "ambush/camo" switch for semi-armored tank destroyers.
Hopefully making them more viable choices, even if it is very situational.
It also makes them an upgrade option from the AT class.
Image


Next Addon version (2023-10) should extend basic Grand Campaign compatibility all the way to 1945 East and thus make a complete GC playthrough possible.
Image
The Soviet Union had developments that were ahead of their time )
Image
https://vk.com/@moiavoina-ruchnye-i-sta ... ranatomety
https://warspot.ru/16933-pervyy-sovetskiy-rpg


Image
https://forum.guns.ru/forum_na/forum_pi ... 80733.html
https://alternathistory.ru/granatomyotn ... ?acpage=10


https://union.4bb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=971&p=28#p123331
https://mynickname.com/id73473
Image
Locarnus
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Re: Locarnus Addon 2023-09, for Grand Campaign, Battlefield Europe and Afrika Korps

Post by Locarnus »

bondjamesbond wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:02 pm
The Soviet Union had developments that were ahead of their time )
A whole treasure trove of advanced concepts!
Probably the usual "we have something good enough (for the moment), no need to develop something better" issue that plague many advanced concepts.
Compared to Soviets, Germans and British, only the US lacked a decent anti-tank rifle and thus had an early incentive to follow through with bazooka and related developments.



After speaking with Richard Martin, I'll recheck the recon roster, especially the recon planes which are currently balanced for BE.
Eg I'll try to use the theater mechanic from my last post to have separate recon plane versions for BE and GC/AK.

Another topic is the cross class upgrade paths.
Those make it possible to grow the GC/AK core a bit more "in the moment", rather than designing a 1945 intended core and then planning backwards. At least for a first playthrough where prestige is probably not much of an issue due to less tuned in difficulty settings.

Examples of cross class upgrade paths:
Kradschützen can switch between infantry and recon class.
Later Panzer II models can switch between recon and tank class.
Panzerjäger I (Panzer I chassis), Marder II (Panzer II chassis) and Marder III (Panzer 38(t) chassis) will be able to switch between tank and AT class with the next Addon version.
Self propelled artillery like Bison I (Sturmpanzer I on Panzer I chassis), Bison II, some StuG, Wespe, Grille and so on can switch between tank and artillery class.
Self propelled AA (like SdKfz 10/4) can switch between tank and AA class.
Towed AA (like 2 cm Flak) can switch between AT and AA class.

Thus if your second hero on an artillery has spotting +1 and you are willing to spend some prestige, there is a path to make this unit a tank...

Same goes for aircraft.
The most versatile aircraft is the Ju 88. Some variants can switch between strat bomber and tac bomber class, other variants can switch between tac bomber and fighter class and there is even a 1945 variant that can switch between strat bomber and fighter class.
But there are also other aircraft like the Fw 190 and Bf 110, that can switch between tac bomber and figher class (Fw 190 only in 1943 with F and G series).
longer, alternative "PG" like Campaign new version 0.34 from 2011.08.02 (another bugfix & now in zip format)
tactical22
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Re: Locarnus Addon 2023-09, for Grand Campaign, Battlefield Europe and Afrika Korps

Post by tactical22 »

Hi Locarnus!
I love your addon and I´d like to ask if it is possible to add posible/new events to increase nasty surprises :twisted: in the mod such as:
-Spain or Turkey enter the war.
-New operations or raids (Ferdinad, Alphabet, Hannibal Operations... there are dozens!! :D )
-D-day in England if Great Britain has been conquered...
-New disembarks where you don´t expect them: Coast of Yugoslavia, Syria...
To sum up, just new events to enjoy this supreme mod!!
Cheers!!!
Locarnus
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Re: Locarnus Addon 2023-09, for Grand Campaign, Battlefield Europe and Afrika Korps

Post by Locarnus »

tactical22 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 5:44 pm Hi Locarnus!
I love your addon and I´d like to ask if it is possible to add posible/new events to increase nasty surprises :twisted: in the mod such as:
-Spain or Turkey enter the war.
-New operations or raids (Ferdinad, Alphabet, Hannibal Operations... there are dozens!! :D )
-D-day in England if Great Britain has been conquered...
-New disembarks where you don´t expect them: Coast of Yugoslavia, Syria...
To sum up, just new events to enjoy this supreme mod!!
Cheers!!!
Such events would add a lot of immersion!

Unfortunately Battlefield Europe is already stretching the Panzer Corps engine far beyond its originally intended capabilities.
Those events could be implemented, however they would probably not be responsive and impactful enough to warrant the enormous time and effort to build and balance them at this point.
The script list for the BE scenario is frighteningly large already and I fear waking dormant bugs by digging too deep...

With limited time available, I unfortunately have to focus on less complicated changes with larger impact (eg for BE, AK and GC all together) and polishing existing mechanics at the moment.
longer, alternative "PG" like Campaign new version 0.34 from 2011.08.02 (another bugfix & now in zip format)
bondjamesbond
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Re: Locarnus Addon 2023-09, for Grand Campaign, Battlefield Europe and Afrika Korps

Post by bondjamesbond »

Locarnus wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2023 2:03 pm
bondjamesbond wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:02 pm
The Soviet Union had developments that were ahead of their time )
A whole treasure trove of advanced concepts!
Probably the usual "we have something good enough (for the moment), no need to develop something better" issue that plague many advanced concepts.
Compared to Soviets, Germans and British, only the US lacked a decent anti-tank rifle and thus had an early incentive to follow through with bazooka and related developments.
Image
https://telegra.ph/SHagayushchij-DOT-s- ... ojny-08-28


Image
https://alternathistory.ru/yurij-pashol ... galperina/
https://warspot.ru/12680-v-poiskah-idealnoy-sfery


Image
:lol:
https://mynickname.com/id73473
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Locarnus
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Re: Locarnus Addon 2023-09a, for Grand Campaign, Battlefield Europe and Afrika Korps

Post by Locarnus »

There has been a lot of feedback in the form of the
Grand Campaign 1939 youtube playthrough by Richard Martin, with his very hard custom Napoleon difficulty:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbINMSk ... MV6TKXgWnw

So this update makes some adjustments, while I have to test some more for others (like recon ammo, also having to take desert warfare for AK into account).

And as announced earlier, I used the theater mechanic to clean up the purchasing and upgrade screens, hopefully making the upgrade choices for the grand finale of the
Afrika Korps youtube playthrough by goose_2 a bit easier:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2Y5U0L ... k1t2KkL4dD



2023-09a Complete "Locarnus Addon" Download: https://bit.ly/3rsre9l

The bugfixed version of Panzer Corps 1.32 is required, see install instructions in slitherine forum

Theater dependent unit availability, thank you goose_2 for AK youtube playthrough
- Reduced clutter on unit upgrade and purchasing screen where possible:
- No more non-desert specific units for the AK campaign, except for final British India scenario
- No more desert specific units for the Grand Campaign
- The Battlefield Europe campaign retains the complete desert + non-desert unit availability
- Captured units upgrade options removed where not relevant (eg T-34 & KV)

Grand Campaign DLC compatibility, thank you Richard Martin for GC 39 youtube playthrough
- Poznan altered, making the Panzer 35(t) an aux unit but the Bf 110 a core unit
- Bf 109 E-3 available earlier, at Piatek

Terrain Changes:
- Mountains have higher initiative cap (3 instead of 1)
- lowsup terrain trait removed from forest and hills (it remains on desert, dunes, swamp, thick forest and mountains)

Unit Changes:
- Many Axis semi armored tank destroyers can now switch to special camo TD mode (AT class)
- German Cav has a non-attack recon switch, graphics thanks to McGuba BE 2.4
- Several recon units had their ammo reduced a bit (will test further)
- Kradschützen rof buffed again to 9 in recon mode, air def harmonized between inf and recon mode
- Brückenpioniere rebalanced, SE Brückenpioniere available in GC 1942
- Several unit names shortened, thx to upgrade family separators on purchasing screen
- KV series combat stats (mostly the captured ones) and prestige costs adjusted
- Artillery "7.5 cm FK 16 nA" range adjusted to 3, same as "75mm wz.1897", thank you Richard Martin
- 10.5 cm GebH added (several arties could use specific icons in the future)
- T-34/42(r) added
- Alpini buffed a bit & Gebirgsjäger have 6 ammo instead of 5, to account for mountain lowsup terrain trait
- Panther G second tropical paint version, especially for AK India
- 8 cm PAW 600 big unit picture fixed
- Bf 109 F-4+ version added, as a contemporary alternative to the basic G-6 in early 1943
longer, alternative "PG" like Campaign new version 0.34 from 2011.08.02 (another bugfix & now in zip format)
Locarnus
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Re: Locarnus Addon 2023-09b, for Grand Campaign, Battlefield Europe and Afrika Korps

Post by Locarnus »

In his youtube playthrough of GC 39 Kampinoska, Richard Martin noticed that the 8.8cm Flak has no transport at this point (I originally only made that unit available for Norway).
So this one required a hotfix.
Together with his prestige situation due to the Napoleon difficulty, it got me thinking about affordable transports in general.
So with this update, the cheap horse transport option is available for more units.
Including Pioniere, for which this is a cheap way of increasing on-road movement to 4!

I also removed the need to adjust to BE ship values just for Grand Campaign 39 Norway.


2023-09b Complete "Locarnus Addon" Download: https://bit.ly/3ZtSvVo

The bugfixed version of Panzer Corps 1.32 is required, see install instructions in slitherine forum

Grand Campaign DLC compatibility, thank you Richard Martin for GC 39 youtube playthrough
- 8.8cm Flak 18 available earlier (for Kampinoska), including horse and SdKfz 7 transport
- German and British ships are converted back to Vanilla values for GC and AK, reducing the shock value for Narvik
- Poznan provides an SE bonus unit after capturing a primary victory hex
- Poznan Bf 110 placed on the airfield in ferry mode to demonstrate the switching mechanic
- Poznan southern arty positions swapped, to account for 7.5cm FK nA range 3
- Poznan added another advice message concerning AI purchases and aircraft upgrades

Unit Changes:
- A lot more cheap horse transport options, from Pioniere to 8.8cm Flak and several artillery pieces
- SdKfz 231 has 1 more movement
- Semovente 90/53 camo AT mode stats fixed
- German Kavallerie has switch symbols like the Kradschützen
- Bf 110 more expensive
- 21cm Mrs 18 and 17cm K 18 have a bit more defense to compensate for their inability to retreat
- 8.8cm Flak 18 early transport availability fixed
- Do 17 E a bit less bad
longer, alternative "PG" like Campaign new version 0.34 from 2011.08.02 (another bugfix & now in zip format)
bondjamesbond
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Re: Locarnus Addon 2023-09b, for Grand Campaign, Battlefield Europe and Afrika Korps

Post by bondjamesbond »

Excellent horse-drawn transport was used by everyone, although for some reason they call the Second World War engines)))
During the Great Patriotic War, many different animals served in the armed forces. These are dogs, pigeons, cats, bears, deer, moose, mules. Camels should be mentioned separately. Their endurance, unpretentiousness and physical strength often helped Soviet servicemen in difficult situations when neither people, horses, nor equipment could cope. In modern times, a monument has even been erected to military camels.
https://dzen.ru/a/ZFNfEgi54yxnA2lw

Image
There were even fighting moose)))
https://pantv.livejournal.com/1511525.html
https://kurush1.livejournal.com/198666.html
The scale of the animal does not matter at all. After all, even tiny fireflies were honored to be remembered in the military annals. In the UK, a monument was erected to them as heroes. These little boogers were collected by British officers in banks to read staff maps by their light in the darkness of the dugouts of the First World War.

In general, the military cunning of mankind is limitless, and there is no animal that we could not use to destroy the enemy — with the subsequent assignment of the title of hero to the beast :lol:
https://www.maximonline.ru/longreads/an ... -id153743/
Reindeer battalions also took part in battles. In 1942 they destroyed the airfield in Petsamo, an important Luftwaffe airbase in the Far North. "They chose the darkest time for the attack. A heavy snowstorm was blowing. Soldiers in white coats. You can't hear the reindeer. It's not a horse that can suddenly roar and spoil the whole affair. We approached stealthily, waited until the fascists settled down, and then suddenly attacked. Having destroyed the guards, blown up airplanes and fuel depot, they disappeared in the snowy whirlwind unnoticed, just as they came. They tried to catch up with us, but to no avail! - Yefim Gorbunov, a participant of the attack, recalled (E. Kuznetsov "Battalions go through the blizzard").

"Reindeer" troops were used both in sea operations (animals quickly swam and "covered" the landing of soldiers), and in the air - reindeer herders on light sleds pulled out of the deep snow engines of downed airplanes and wounded pilots. During the whole time of the war on the fronts of the Polar region reindeer transport battalions delivered 17 thousand tons of ammunition, took out 10 thousand wounded from the battlefield and evacuated more than 150 planes.
https://diletant.media/articles/45285468/
https://mynickname.com/id73473
Image
jeffoot77
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Re: Locarnus Addon 2023-09b, for Grand Campaign, Battlefield Europe and Afrika Korps

Post by jeffoot77 »

Many thxs Locarnus for the continuous work
my custom mini-campaign in order of battle :
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=374&t=79333&p=676302#p676302

Panzer corps mods archive : http://jeffoot.freeboxos.fr:41226/share/KmCyju7JFZX6dD2B/
Locarnus
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Re: Locarnus Addon 2023-09b, for Grand Campaign, Battlefield Europe and Afrika Korps

Post by Locarnus »

bondjamesbond wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:28 pm [...]
There were even fighting moose)))
[...]
Fascinating efforts to make use of more of Russias treasures, not just minerals and flora.
I remember reading something about fox domestication and your links and info led me to this wikipedia page on moose utilization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kostroma_Moose_Farm

jeffoot77 wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 4:00 pm Many thxs Locarnus for the continuous work
You are welcome!
Sorry for the many smaller updates in a row.
Lots of initial tuning for the Grand Campaign, with the new rule of 1 + very low prestige and experience challenge.
Especially for the early unit balancing (39 & 40), which I have somewhat neglected until now.


Grand Campaign 39
Speaking of GC 39 balancing, the rule of 1 + horse drawn arty + very low prestige + very slow experience gain combination leads to a "frontloading" of the difficulty.

In the unmodded Panzer Corps, the GC 39 scenarios were originally balanced with lots of highly mobile arty + plentyful prestige + rapid experience growth in mind.

When testing the rule of 1 + horse drawn arty, I reduced prestige and experience gain (FM Rommel), but not to a level where I had too little prestige to compensate the weaker arty simply by throwing prestige at the problem (more airforce, normal replacements during a scenario and elite replacements during deployment).
Thus in my tests I ended up with an imho desireably smaller prestige and core force mountain at the end of GC 39, while still being able to play GC 39 adequately.
That compensation does not work so well with double FM + double Rommel as Richard Martin showed on youtube.

In 1940 that Addon + Rule of 1 specific "horse drawn arty problem" diminishes considerably, since more arty choices become available. And at that time the player is more accustomed to the Addon quirks and unit specifics.
Thus I mainly need to adjust the situation for Poland, but ideally without touching the scenarios themselves (and I want to keep the horse drawn arty for germany).

So far I'm leaning towards a simple strength reduction for most of the Polish units (excluding the basic infantry and fortifications), eg to 8 max strength.
longer, alternative "PG" like Campaign new version 0.34 from 2011.08.02 (another bugfix & now in zip format)
Locarnus
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Re: Locarnus Addon 2023-09b, for Grand Campaign, Battlefield Europe and Afrika Korps

Post by Locarnus »

Quite a few improvements based on feedback for 2023-10 (coming in a few days).

goose_2 gets the requested Gustav railway gun for the British India final of his
Afrika Korps youtube playthrough:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_poXAE ... D&index=58


As discussed in the previous post, the Polish part of GC 39 has been adjusted to allow for higher difficulty attempts, which tended to frontload the struggle due to horse drawn arty.
This adjustment has been done both by lowering max strength of Polish units (except forts and basic infantry), as well as strengthening the player core during Poznan (eg some units start with experience, "Condor Legion" veterans).

Richard Martin also gets the unit comparison table he requested during his
GC 39 youtube playthrough:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbINMSk ... MV6TKXgWnw


This is my draft for that unit comparison document (incorporating 2023-10 changes, like unified SdKfz 22x upgrade family, different availability times for several units and a balancing pass for small caliber AA):

Big version (Inf, Tank, Recon): https://i.imgur.com/sOlKp03.jpg

Big version (AT, Arty, AA): https://i.imgur.com/hjdqgmu.jpg

Big version (Aircraft & table legend): https://i.imgur.com/gKDp6Ai.jpg

Image
Image
Image
Last edited by Locarnus on Sat Sep 30, 2023 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
longer, alternative "PG" like Campaign new version 0.34 from 2011.08.02 (another bugfix & now in zip format)
McGuba
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Re: Locarnus Addon 2023-09b, for Grand Campaign, Battlefield Europe and Afrika Korps

Post by McGuba »

Locarnus wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:08 pm Unit Changes:
- A lot more cheap horse transport options, from Pioniere to 8.8cm Flak and several artillery pieces
I think it is very unlikely that the 8.8cm Flak was ever pulled by horses. Firstly, it was probably a bit too heavy (it looks like even the 15cm sFH 18 could only be towed by horses in two parts: one carriage was carrying the barrel and another the mount, each pulled by a seperate horse team, and I'm not sure if the 8.8cm Flak could be dismantled as such). Second,
German doctrine dictated that Flak guns (and towed AT guns) had to be motorised for fast redeployment.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... p?t=339365
ImageImage
slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=47985
slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=36969
bondjamesbond
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Re: Locarnus Addon 2023-09b, for Grand Campaign, Battlefield Europe and Afrika Korps

Post by bondjamesbond »

Image
In Russia, any doctrines do not apply)))
Image
So Flak 88 is a great gun against tanks )
https://naukatehnika.com/nemeczkie-zeni ... chast.html
https://naukatehnika.com/nemeczkie-zeni ... ast-2.html
https://en.topwar.ru/156859-rasskazy-ob ... anone.html


Image

Image
A Wehrmacht soldier behind a 7.92 mm Zwillingssockel-36 anti-aircraft gun.The anti-aircraft gun is placed in the MG-Wagen 36 horse-drawn carriage, which was attached to infantry battalions for the purpose of organizing air defense, including on marches.
https://smolbattle.ru/threads/Пулемётна ... 144/page-2

There were few such carts. Before the attack on the USSR, the Nazis requisitioned 700 thousand carts and carts in Poland. On them and went.
https://yuripasholok.livejournal.com/13365639.html


Image
https://reibert.info/threads/guzhevoj-t ... 251/page-2
https://mynickname.com/id73473
Image
Locarnus
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Re: Locarnus Addon 2023-09b, for Grand Campaign, Battlefield Europe and Afrika Korps

Post by Locarnus »

McGuba wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:02 pm
Locarnus wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:08 pm Unit Changes:
- A lot more cheap horse transport options, from Pioniere to 8.8cm Flak and several artillery pieces
I think it is very unlikely that the 8.8cm Flak was ever pulled by horses. Firstly, it was probably a bit too heavy (it looks like even the 15cm sFH 18 could only be towed by horses in two parts: one carriage was carrying the barrel and another the mount, each pulled by a seperate horse team, and I'm not sure if the 8.8cm Flak could be dismantled as such). Second,
German doctrine dictated that Flak guns (and towed AT guns) had to be motorised for fast redeployment.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... p?t=339365

I fully agree that the historical 8.8cm Flak definitely demands a motorized prime mover, both in terms of weight and doctrine!


Part of my frustration lies with the PzC engine, which allows the 1 movement + attack in the same turn even when such a unit has no attached mover at all. Though it is probably not as bad as hordes of Tiger tanks being flown over the Caucasus in gliders (unmodded Afrika Korps) or superhero stat boosters like Oleh Dir and Uber Rudel.
I guess I regard horse drawn more like a (mental) gap filler, between "SdKfz 7" realism and "1 move + attack without anything" game engine limitations.

Which leaves technical plausiblity of horse drawn 8.8cm Flak, eg for emergency road transport.
My exhibit A is the "Hf.7 Stahlfeldwagen", with ~1t empty weight and ~1.5t payload capacity, designed for 2! horses. Which means a ridiculous 1 horse per ~1.25t weight ratio that actually happened regularly (gathering it the well earned nickname "horse killer"). Where possible, 4 horses were used, and 6 were not uncommon on the eastern front.
Nevertheless, it establishes that the 1 horse per 1.25t ratio was actually used for road transport.
Thus making 6 horses for ~7t at least theoretically possible. Going to 8 or more would certainly help the argument.
I do remember some hearsay about horse drawn loads in that weight range, probably at the very end of the war.

My exhibit B is, that I vaguely remember a picture of an 8.8cm Flak drawn by a ~3t truck (I think it was a Henschel 33?).
And like bondjamesbond showed, sometimes they had to make do with what they had.

Overall, as you said horses as regular transports for the 8.8cm Flak are certainly ahistorical.
Within the PzC Grand Campaign though, I can probably live with them. Especially when it makes it a bit more enjoyable for players to try harder difficulties, with less prestige and without superheroes and King Tiger hordes.
longer, alternative "PG" like Campaign new version 0.34 from 2011.08.02 (another bugfix & now in zip format)
Locarnus
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 452
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Re: Locarnus Addon 2023-10, for Grand Campaign, Battlefield Europe and Afrika Korps

Post by Locarnus »

With this 2023-10 Addon version, the full "Grand Campaign East" should be technically compatible.

GC 39 & 40 should be better comparable to vanilla and deducter mod, even with "rule of one" horse drawn arty and higher difficulties, thanks to the youtube feedback from Richard Martin. Both by adjusting the Poznan starting situation and limiting the max strength of most polish units and some french units.

The equipment tables for GC 39 & 40 are available as jpg pictures a few posts before this one:
https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewto ... 7#p1012117
And this is the .ods equipment spreadsheet for download (and direct display in dropbox, though that viewer still has some issues...): (edit: see first post in this thread)



2023-10 Complete "Locarnus Addon" Download: https://bit.ly/3ZSRw1r

The bugfixed version of Panzer Corps 1.32 is required, see install instructions in slitherine forum

AK campaign, thank you goose_2 for Afrika Korps youtube playthrough!
- British India scenario rail connections around the Thar desert in somewhat more historically appropriate locations
- British India scenario provides one Gustav and one 28cm K5 railway gun (compared to two 28cm K5 in unmodded AK)

Grand Campaign DLC compatibility, thank you Richard Martin for GC 39 youtube playthrough
- Several core troops in Poznan start with experience (from Spain), to reduce the front loading of campaign difficulty
- Most polish units have max strength 8, to compensate for scenarios not designed with horse drawn arty in mind
- French AT and tank units have max strength of 8
- 8.8cm purchasing screen separator shown earlier (Kampinoska)
- Later sub-campaigns can be started without core import (eg for testing), but without bonus SE units in core
- GC 41-45 East preliminary technical compatibility checks and adjustments (no rebalancing)

Unit Changes:
- Late Infantry ground and air defense increased
- Early Panzer III and IV a bit cheaper, BuFla a bit more expensive
- Bf 110 B added
- Aircraft rebalancing for Poland
- Some aircraft price adjustments (Ju87, Bf 109, Bf 110, Ju88)
- Some further stat and availability rebalancing for smaller Flak guns (3.7cm available from Poznan)
- Reevaluated arty, AT and AA towing options, SdKfz 10 cheaper
- Horse transport has 1 more air defense rating
- Schwerer Gustav and 28cm K5 ammo increased by 1 (still dont put them on low supply hexes)
- SdKfz 221, 222 & 223 are now in the same upgrade family
- SdKfz 231 availability extended
- Bison I availability consolidated
- Fw 200 Condor upgrade family fixed
- Most polish units have max strength 8
- French AT and tank units have max strength of 8
Last edited by Locarnus on Wed Oct 04, 2023 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
longer, alternative "PG" like Campaign new version 0.34 from 2011.08.02 (another bugfix & now in zip format)
McGuba
Colonel - Ju 88A
Colonel - Ju 88A
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:34 pm

Re: Locarnus Addon 2023-10, for Grand Campaign, Battlefield Europe and Afrika Korps

Post by McGuba »

Locarnus wrote: Sat Sep 30, 2023 11:32 am Which means a ridiculous 1 horse per ~1.25t weight ratio that actually happened regularly (gathering it the well earned nickname "horse killer"). Where possible, 4 horses were used, and 6 were not uncommon on the eastern front.
Nevertheless, it establishes that the 1 horse per 1.25t ratio was actually used for road transport.
I assume that it was only used for emergency/short distances. Even the lighter 15cm sFH 18 was towed in two parts as shown and described in this article:

The weight of 5.5 tons meant that the barrel and mount had to be transported separately.
...
The gun was disassembled for transport by horse, the weight of each carriage totalling up to 4 tons. The top speed when towed in this form was 8 kph. The s.F.H. 18 could also be towed by tractors at a top speed of up to 60 kph on a paved highway.

With the appearance of the Sd.Kfz. 7 halftrack in 1938, the gun could be towed without disassembly. The barrel was pulled back to travel position. The top towing speed was 40 kph. If the gun was transported separately, it took 5-7 minutes to bring it back to combat position, a complex process that required eight men. When transported in one piece, it only took 3-4 minutes.
https://www.tankarchives.ca/2017/10/sch ... eight.html

So it looks like a standard 6 horse team could only tow 4 tons for normal distances. That's why I wrote that the 8.8 Flak (over 7 tons) was probably just too heavy to be moved by horse team for any reasonable distance.

Other than that I agree that that the PzC mechanic of very heavy towed units being able to move 1 hex without an attached transport is somewhat cheesy. But it my view this can mean an emergency movement by an ad-hoc team of horses or whatever means. Somewhat cheesy, but perhaps plausible.

However, giving dedicated horse transport to units which were not known to have it for weight reason seems less ideal as some players may just use them with horses anyway for extended periods, perhaps even throughout a whole campaign, which would be totally unhistorical.
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