Ancient Spanish Scutarii BG's

iowa_grognard · Post by **iowa_grognard** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:09 am

I'm putting together an Iberian centric army and was wondering about warband size. What has been your experience with undrilled BG sizes? I'm currently leaning towards BG's of 10.

devilforrest · Post by **devilforrest** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:04 am

Chris Anders is currently visiting your state and is always willing to promote FoG.
Maybe you could get together with him and playtest Spanish. He is stuck at his inlaws without lead and it looks like he is going through withdrawls.
Nice name .

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 6:29 pm

You want some third-rankers for a BG that is going into the line of battle a head-up fight against something challenging, which practically means 8s, though there is something to be said for having one very large BG to play with (more so with HF that stand in the open). 6 undrilled bases will do well for a second line support/reserve or for chasing lights or vulnerable mediums out of terrain - in a Gallic list with lots of HF I take the Spanish ally with a pair of 6s to clear terrain and some LH for utility.

Mike

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 6:38 pm

Try various groupings and see what you like. The Celtiberian HF work well in 10s (4-4-2) or 8s (3-3-2). The 10s have the benefit of needing 4 hits to cause a CT. Two of these BGs side by side, with a 6pak for rear support, make the best centre block the Spanish can muster. I usually run each 10pak of Celtiberians with an ally commander. They need all the help they can get, esp. if facing Romans or Pikes. Ancient Spanish is one of the few lists that can use those ally commanders.

The MF, if undrilled, are better kept small and numerous. I've found they can be very unwieldy if in 8s. Generals are a must, IC if you can. Otherwise, we've seen an entire flank hang up on itself.

Try the drilled 4paks sometime.

Now that's a swarm!!!!

JackfromVancouver · Post by **JackfromVancouver** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:52 am

@ Blathergut

do you mean the upgraded caetratri in the Sertorius' list?

Can't see how else you can field drilled Scutarii, aside from the Late Carthaginian list, which doesn't allow 4 packs.

Did I just turn into "That guy" by asking that? Hahaha

Happy Boxing day.

iowa_grognard · Post by **iowa_grognard** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:00 am

Thanks for the the input gentlemen; it has all helped shed some light on the matter.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:39 pm

JackfromVancouver wrote:do you mean the upgraded caetratri in the Sertorius' list?

yep

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:04 pm

The Sertorius list with drilled BG's gives the Spanish their best chance of winning in my opinion. Now if you can find some very rare and simple type of Roman player who will not use vet legions superior skilled swords, and uses average swords for his legions you would have a much better chance with the Spanish. Unfortunately it is unlikely any Roman will not take the superior skilled sword killing machine.

Mehrunes · Post by **Mehrunes** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:43 pm

Unfortunately it is unlikely any Roman will not take the superior skilled sword killing machine.

Depends on whether it is a tournament player who only wants to win or a player who likes historical and plausible match-ups.
Besides, some Romans can't be all superior, skilled swordsmen like the MRR, who can only field 16 bases of these.

JackfromVancouver · Post by **JackfromVancouver** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:23 pm

The Sertorius list gives me heart palpitations, 27 BGs of Drilled Caetrati 4 packs is both terrifying and enticing.

marioslaz · Post by **marioslaz** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:12 pm

JackfromVancouver wrote:The Sertorius list gives me heart palpitations, 27 BGs of Drilled Caetrati 4 packs is both terrifying and enticing.

:?::?: Why 27? If I understand well just Lusitanians' Heavy Caetrati can be upgraded, so limit is 12 BGs in 4 (or 48 bases).

JackfromVancouver · Post by **JackfromVancouver** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:33 pm

Sorry my bad, that should have read 27 bases not BGs, bit hungover, buddies Birthday last night. He turned 30 we tried to kill him with booze.

Here's how my math should have worked.

Caetrati are usually 6-8 per BG and 12-110 bases, with the upgrade they become 4-6 per BG with the bases requirements field stating "any", which I assume (in my near boundless ignorance) remains 12-110. Divide 110 by 4 you get 27 bases, with 4 packs you can field 6 BGs of these little monsters.

Thanks for calling me on that, my math always sucks.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:51 am

Sertorius is with the Lusitanians...you have to use that section of the list...Heavy Caetrati 16-48 bases...any/all of which can be upgraded to the drilled 4-6 paks. They can also have the large shield cav and the small shield cav and the caetrati LF from the top of the list...plus Celtiberian mercenaries or allies make a good center of HF...I know some like to toss in the two 4paks of Romans

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:47 am

Bah 4packs or Romans?? Go Spanish or go home that's what I say.

Cerberias · Post by **Cerberias** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:49 am

I think everyones just in the '4 pak swarm' mentality at the moment, 4 packs of average impact foot i cant see being that great, testing to not charge, only needing to take two casualties to auto-break, really not as good as the roman equivalent that everyones so hyped up about.

If I was going to run Ancient Spanish, I'd probably run it like this.

Ancient Spanish - Sertorius' Lusitanians
1x Inspired commander - Inspired commander holds the main battle line against enemy foot armies (ones that line up and charge), or helps the probably
2x Troop commanders - skirmishers out against enemy shoot armies to stop them from losing cohesion to enemy shooting (umbrella effect), the two troop commanders would attach to the two units that are fighting the most in an effort to hold them or even get them to win.

12x Mercenary Celtibarians - These two units are the main force that can provide a large frontage and should be able to hold out until other units can help,
12x Mercenary Celtibarians - heavy foot helps against the enemy cavalry. These would either deploy in 5 wide or 6 wide depending on the need to replenish casualties or provide a larger frontage.

6x Heavy Caetrati - These five units are all drilled, one provides rear support for the heavy foot (being drilled it makes it easier to stay in rear support
6x Heavy Caetrati - range/position), the other four units hold the flanks and turn the enemies flanks.
6x Heavy Caetrati
6x Heavy Caetrati
6x Heavy Caetrati

6x Caetrati - These three units are shooting soakers, and can chase away enemy light foot if needed, the unit of eight is the one you put into the position
6x Caetrati - to soak the most fire, or if needed to hold a unit of bow armed light horse (even poa, even dice in melee) until help arrives.
8x Caetrati

4x Large shield cav (drilled) - These five units are anti-skirmishers mostly, can take out enemy light horse and light foot, and the large shield cav can add
4x Small shield cav - that element of shock power onto a flank of an enemy unit if they choose to ignore them. The slingers are there to help shoot enemy
4x Small shield cav - light horse and stick close enough to the light horse so that they shouldnt be vulnerable to enemy light horse running them down.
4x Small shield cav
6x Slingers

Order of march would be:
1. Caetrati 2. Large shield cavalry 3. Heavy Caetrati 4. Mercenaries
1. Caetrati 2. Small shield cavalry 3. Heavy Caetrati 4. Mercenaries
1. Caetrati 2. Small shield cavalry 3. Heavy Caetrati 4. Rear support Heavy Caetrati
1. Slingers 2. Small shield cavalry 3. Heavy Caetrati

You leave the mercenaries until last and plonk them down in front of the main body of enemy infantry, move them up slowly when you know that your Heavy Caetrati will be able to support/envelop the flanks by the time you get into contact, or a maximum of two turns afterwards. The cavalry/slingers attack enemy light horse or slow down one flank of enemy forces, depending on the enemy. The caetrati can either support the skirmishers, slow down the other flank, or soak fire for the mercenaries.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:55 pm

I have run the drilled MF in 6paks, 3 deep. The need is always for more BGs somewhere, instead of those troops being in a 3rd rank or as rear support!

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:48 pm

I have played both types of Spanish armies and personally had much better success with the 4pack drilled, which is the real key here not the numbers. Large unwieldy undrilled hordes are no match for the quick moving drilled superior Romans, at least the drilled 4 packs allow you to maneuver onto their flanks and do some damage. Mostly the Spanish clear the flanks where the lights and other fodder are deployed and then lose their center to the Legions while the flank hordes attempt to turn in mostly unsuccessfully while their break points climb and their army break point is reached.
Actual game experience goes further than theoretical army lists

Cerberias · Post by **Cerberias** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:09 pm

Oh well mate, just trying to help, with an army that I wouldnt want to run in the first place, while keeping it out of the 'cheap' category that people see in 4 packs.. which i also dislike because they take casualties worse, and take shooting worse than the 6 packs do. The drilled medium foot are the hammer, the heavy undrilled foot are the anvil.

iowa_grognard · Post by **iowa_grognard** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:34 am

The Heavy Caetrati argument is a strong one and thanks for the input. I may have to build both just for fun.
Going this direction would require some modelling questions:

If I go that way how would I depict those troops using Corvus?
Typical Caetrati models, just as MF?
Add larger shields replacing small round?
Were the Lusitanians the ones who used the sinew helmet more frequently? I also read somewhere they that they had a fondness for darker weave clothing.

OldenTired · Post by **OldenTired** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:54 pm

JackfromVancouver wrote:The Sertorius list gives me heart palpitations, 27 BGs of Drilled Caetrati 4 packs is both terrifying and enticing.

TWENTY-SEVEN BGS???!!!

bye bye FOG.

you were a fun game,

before you became completely ridiculous.