LOS-Do you care for it?

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hidde
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LOS-Do you care for it?

Post by hidde » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:03 am

Strange question many of you may think since it was requested by most players. It's done as well as one can hope for I guess but I'm not sure it adds very much to the game.
In fact I hardly notice it other than the fact that it makes take back moves impossible. FOW is more realistic some would say. I think some realism is important and some less so.
If game play is worse for it (as I think) and it doesn't change or add much I'm not sure I like to have it just for the sake of realism. There's a poll for or against LOS in the 100-years campaign right now and it's pretty close. Any thoughts?

Paisley
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Post by Paisley » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:12 am

I like it, on the whole.

The main two irritations are lack of take-back and the fact one can 'see through' ranks on an enemy move (but I think more could be done with the whole 'unit identifying' thing anyway).

The great plus is that I have won at least two games by hiding my cavalry in woods and bursting out to take the enemy in the flank. It makes fighting in woods more chaotoc and interesting generally.

So if they could devise a fix for the 'take back' issue, I'd be happy. And if they could introduce a bit more 'fog' by having troops identifiable only at a set range (beyond which all you can determine are broad categories - say 'light foot' 'light horse or cavalry or cataphract' 'knights' 'medium or heavy foot' 'pikes', etc.

The reason I'd have knights separate is becaus eof their numerous banners, and pikes because of the length of their weapons.
Playing as:
Danish - Won 1, Lost 2
Lancastrians - Won 3, Lost 3
Milanese - Lost 1
Scots Isles and Highlands - Lost 1
Swiss - Won 25, Lost 3

hidde
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Post by hidde » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:36 am

The great plus is that I have won at least two games by hiding my cavalry in woods and bursting out to take the enemy in the flank. It makes fighting in woods more chaotoc and interesting generally.
That's exactly what I was hoping for when LOS were introduced. Sadly I never gotten the chance. Either there are no suitable forrest nearby or if I'm to move my cavallry hidden to the right spot it takes to long.

keyth
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Post by keyth » Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:01 am

I really like it. The lack of 'Take-back' makes you really think too :)
Keyth

ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

Paisley
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Post by Paisley » Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:03 am

I don't mind the concept of 'no take back' it's just I'm more ham-fingered on the mousepad than I'd like.
Playing as:
Danish - Won 1, Lost 2
Lancastrians - Won 3, Lost 3
Milanese - Lost 1
Scots Isles and Highlands - Lost 1
Swiss - Won 25, Lost 3

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Post by SRW1962 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:12 am

As I almost always forget to use it and also play a lot of hotseat games with my mates, I am neither for or against it. WHen I have played using it I really didn't think it added a great deal to the game as I simply carried on as per normal, but its part of the game and other people enjoy it and it has an on/off button, so I feel it should be left as it is.

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Post by batesmotel » Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:02 am

I find the fact that it has broken the undo on movement to be more irritating than the gain of Fog of War. I'd be fine with it it they fixed the undo interaction since I also tend to be on the ham fisted side. Note that LoS (as separate from fog of war) in terms of firing effects seems like a definie plus.

Chris
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Post by Morbio » Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:34 am

I like the concept, but I've rarely found the terrain availble where I can make use of it. If there are hills and woods then they are often not near where the lines are deployed. Where I have tried hiding units in woods then I've found it takes too long to get the units out of the woods to make the surprise really effective.

I do miss the take-back option, particularly since the latest patch whereby facing has become much more critical. I now find I make mistakes related to facing, i.e. the end up pointing in a different direction from what I expected (e.g. exposing a rear hex when I thought it would be a flank), and the lack of take back is costly. Yes, it is my fault, but sometimes it's just not obvious to me. :(

Given the choice I prefer to play with it off.

rbodleyscott
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Post by rbodleyscott » Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:21 pm

I prefer to play with it off. If it could be altered so that it only prevents take-back if a hidden hex is revealed, then I would play with it on.

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Post by grumblefish » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:09 pm

I like the idea, but I couldn't imagine a worse way of implementing it. I hate that you can never take back moves, even when you don't reveal anything new, and I really, really, really hate how the enemy can magically see behind your front line when he watches the replay. What is the point if you give the opponent magical powers to see through the fog? Now the fog only helps if you are hiding behind a hill or in the forest; positioning units behind your front line is not helpful, because your opponent will just magically spot them (and moving things behind my line is the main reason I wanted the fog).

deeter
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Post by deeter » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:13 pm

Even with its flaws, I rather like it. However, few players use it so I haven't gotten much chance to either. Not being able to take back moves is the big problem I think.

Deeter

arsan
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Post by arsan » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:43 pm

I have mixed feelings... it could have been great but ended being a pretty irrelevant feature. Sometimes it allows for interesting situations, but most of the times you only notice its nasty side effect (no undo).
I was very happy when it was announced and I always play with it enabled, but unfortunately i don't think it has any effect on 90% of the battles as currently its only good for hiding behind terrain. And few maps give any chance of hiding with some effect.
The only continuous effect is the no undo movement which can be frustrating (specially when one don't uncover any hex) but can also make things more challenging... you have to be very though-full with your movements or expose yourself to problems.

As others comment, my main hope with the LoS tool was to use it as a way of hiding your second line behind the first. It woudl had added another strategy layer to the game than sadly is completely missing now...

When the LoS was released and some commented about this "transparent units" problem i recall someone at Hexwar said they will look into it. Don't know if any progress have been made in that direction... :roll:

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Post by kujalar » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:05 am

I think LOS effects are MUST when playing wargames with a computer (because you can simulate it pretty good, with boardgames it is harder).

In FOG the LOS-logic should be improved in future releases though.

Most of the time the LOS does not matter, but when it does, it is really juicy!

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Post by Gunjin » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:23 am

rbodleyscott wrote:I prefer to play with it off. If it could be altered so that it only prevents take-back if a hidden hex is revealed, then I would play with it on.
I play with FOG on. I think LOS is nesessary for shooting purposes. I dont use the takeback function. Like chess when you have made a move thats it done. Its a gamey function not a representation of what happens on a battle field. If you order a unit to move to point X as a commander then change your mind (after the order had been sent) by the time the unit got the order to move some where else they would have already started/completed the intial move order. So why should this game be any different.
"When you are the anvil, be patient. When you are the hammer, strike."
-Arabian Proverb

Paisley
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Post by Paisley » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:48 am

In chess it is highly unusual to stop moving a piece on a given square because you hand slips.

What I, and others, find is that misclicking is an issue. I have no interest in taking back moves that are mistakes of judgement. But errors of physical co-ordination are a bit different.
Playing as:
Danish - Won 1, Lost 2
Lancastrians - Won 3, Lost 3
Milanese - Lost 1
Scots Isles and Highlands - Lost 1
Swiss - Won 25, Lost 3

hidde
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Post by hidde » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:04 pm

Gunjin wrote:
rbodleyscott wrote:I prefer to play with it off. If it could be altered so that it only prevents take-back if a hidden hex is revealed, then I would play with it on.
I play with FOG on. I think LOS is nesessary for shooting purposes. I dont use the takeback function. Like chess when you have made a move thats it done. Its a gamey function not a representation of what happens on a battle field. If you order a unit to move to point X as a commander then change your mind (after the order had been sent) by the time the unit got the order to move some where else they would have already started/completed the intial move order. So why should this game be any different.
In chess, iirc, if you don't let go of the piece you're moving you can in fact take it back.
It's not gamey and if it is, it's because this is a game. We are not sitting in a time machine that let us go to the real battlefield and command real troops. We are sitting behind a computer screen, playing a game.
For me that should be about making a plan and then compare that plan to your opponent and see who done it best. Both trying their best to sabotage the others tactics. If you fail it should come about because the other player outsmarted you, not because you misclicked, didn't remember a string of complicated moves and got one out of order, thus messing up the movements of a whole group or misjudged the facing of a unit after it's move. I know the last two by some is considered to be part of a players skill. You can argue that but I prefer to compare the skills of planning (tactics) and countermeasures rather than dexterity or memory.

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Post by TheGrayMouser » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:22 pm

I like fow enough that i wouldnt want it removed or not in the game simply because you cant take back a move....I dont think a single misclick or two has ever cost me the battle.

fow and los are present in the real world and even if the changes are not as profound as many expected , it should be in the game (as it is in all wargames)

That being said, i find that the way it was implement in FOG is a really odd design decision, Ie the revealing of one tile at a time when the active player moves his unit...
No other game I know does it this way , generally you moves your units, FOG is never relvealed , in general nor are hidden units revealed until you hit end turn
Exceptions would be if you attempted to move a unit into the ZOC or into the hex of a hidden enemy, you do spot it but have limited actions after that..
Also the way it done now really taxes out the processor , for a turn based game I can notice a pretty big increase in lag when moving or clicking on units w fow on

I think the deveopers stated that if they did it, I guess the more traditional way players would get confused watching the replays as enemy units would just pop up out of nowhere once movement stopped... I dont get that because almost every wargame does it that way, at least for games in this scale
Also , if done the more traddional way , you could advance a line one unit at a time and still keep a second line behind hidden.....(i think this is what most players were expecting w the implimentaion of los)

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Post by batesmotel » Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:33 pm

Gunjin wrote:
rbodleyscott wrote:I prefer to play with it off. If it could be altered so that it only prevents take-back if a hidden hex is revealed, then I would play with it on.
I play with FOG on. I think LOS is nesessary for shooting purposes. I dont use the takeback function. Like chess when you have made a move thats it done. Its a gamey function not a representation of what happens on a battle field. If you order a unit to move to point X as a commander then change your mind (after the order had been sent) by the time the unit got the order to move some where else they would have already started/completed the intial move order. So why should this game be any different.
Just as a clarification, the line of sight effects for shooting are always in effect whether or not Fog of War is being used.

Chris
....where life is beautiful all the time

ScipioTerra
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Post by ScipioTerra » Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:38 pm

LOS is one of the best things of FoG PC. I love it! :D

pomakli
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YES!

Post by pomakli » Sat May 01, 2010 9:52 am

Without LOS is FoG not complete!

:twisted:

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