Conforming on an angled charge

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rpayne
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Conforming on an angled charge

Post by rpayne » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:57 pm

Dannie Martz and I have been having an argument about this for a few weeks now. We discussed it on the American FoG Yahoo Group thing, but he wants an official ruling from the people here, so I'm posting it here as well.

I have a diagram:

Image

Basically the root question is, is a base that adds dice on impact required to conform frontally to the base it threw dice against on impact, or does it conform to an overlap position if that is the shorter distance.

Thanks.

david53
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Post by david53 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:58 pm

If you both had four dice each I would say B just cause it looks right? not a logical reason but in FOG if it looks right its normally right.(I'm sure I'm wrong in that case)

IanB3406
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Post by IanB3406 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:46 pm

It's C in both cases.

petedalby
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Post by petedalby » Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:02 pm

I believe it is C - see page 70.

The key is the 'minimum necessary' to conform either frontally or to an overlap position.
Pete

deadtorius
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Post by deadtorius » Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:13 pm

I think C, but in the case of the A charge on the angle the overlap would be on the other side, minor point. Its move the minimum to conform, if you can't conform you don't but fight as if you had.

iversonjm
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Post by iversonjm » Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:46 pm

Its still C, even on this forum. :wink:

kal5056
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Post by kal5056 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:03 pm

Having studied the diagrams on both forums I have to agree with Matt.
C.
Just because a base throws dice on impact does not mean it must be in front edge to front edge contact with an enemy base in melle. An over lap is perfectly acceptable provided that this is the minimum movement required to allow at least one base to line up front edge to front edge with one base of the enemy BG.

Gino
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Mehrunes
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Post by Mehrunes » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:57 pm

I vote for C in both cases, too.

peterrjohnston
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Post by peterrjohnston » Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:44 pm

petedalby wrote:I believe it is C - see page 70.

The key is the 'minimum necessary' to conform either frontally or to an overlap position.
Actually no, it's the minimum necessary to conform to the "enemy bases in contact". A wording that, from experience, causes confusion with non-native English speakers as to whether it's B or C. The "convention" in the UK seems to be that the answer is C (and I think I've followed this when umpiring), but I can see B being a valid argument to be that you have to maintain contact with both the enemy bases you are in contact with.

Mehrunes
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Post by Mehrunes » Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:53 pm

Isn't front corner to front corner a contact, too?

peterrjohnston
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Post by peterrjohnston » Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:56 pm

I think the confusion is in contact in the sense in combat with, not the geometry.

DavidT
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Post by DavidT » Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:44 pm

Surely for D it is C as that is the shortest move, but for A it is B, as the move distance is less. For A, if you look at the front left corner of the front right blue element, the distance that cornetr has to go to line up as per B is less than the distance it has to go to line up as C.

philqw78
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Post by philqw78 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:16 pm

I would also say A to B and C to D, as its the minimum move.
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

kal5056
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Post by kal5056 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:18 pm

I fail to see how the 2 could have a different answer as the first move of A would be to pivot until it looks like B and then shift to D.

Gino
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kal5056
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Post by kal5056 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:20 pm

Rather Pivot until it looks like D then shift to C

philqw78
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Post by philqw78 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:22 pm

kal5056 wrote:I fail to see how the 2 could have a different answer as the first move of A would be to pivot until it looks like B and then shift to D.

Gino
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Why should it have to pivot first? Its just minimum move. If it does pivot that makes the move even longer and kills your own theory again.
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

kal5056
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Post by kal5056 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:33 pm

Because in order to conform for melle you must get lined up front edge to front edge (unless something makes this impossible)
Thus you pivot to parralel then slide the minimum neccessary to be in legal melle contact.

Gino
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kal5056
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Post by kal5056 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:36 pm

These bases are 40 x 20 I presume.
If you slide to the right you will slide nearly 35 mm then pivot.
If you slide to the left you will slide 5 mm then pivot. Surely we can agree that the pivot covers the same arc so the variable is the slide.

Gino
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philqw78
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Post by philqw78 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:49 pm

kal5056 wrote:Because in order to conform for melle you must get lined up front edge to front edge (unless something makes this impossible)
Thus you pivot to parralel then slide the minimum neccessary to be in legal melle contact.
kal5056 wrote:These bases are 40 x 20 I presume.
If you slide to the right you will slide nearly 35 mm then pivot.
If you slide to the left you will slide 5 mm then pivot. Surely we can agree that the pivot covers the same arc so the variable is the slide.

Gino
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Since it is mimimum move, if it is less movement to comform by going left then left it would be. It looks like it would be less movement to go right to me. So then we need a rule on how the furthest move is measured. Currently the front right corner will move more in one circumstance than the other, and the front left will move less in that circumstance than the other. Oh what fun.
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

philqw78
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Post by philqw78 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:57 pm

kal5056 wrote:Because in order to conform for melle you must get lined up front edge to front edge (unless something makes this impossible)
Thus you pivot to parralel then slide the minimum neccessary to be in legal melle contact.

Gino
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Also this would make it impossible to conform in some circumstances when conforming is clearly allowed. Coinsider a friendly BG to the left or right of a BG charged. If it was in a position that crossed the line of contact it would be impossible to conform after an angled charge.
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

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