THe Reigate LIR

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philqw78
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THe Reigate LIR

Post by philqw78 » Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:11 pm

What about multi-capability troops? I remember a time when Late Roman Legio had Pilum, javelins and darts. They got to shoot at very good factors and fight at very good factors. What about the Carolingian knights with bow; Khitan heavy cavalry, armed with all but the kitchen sink; mixed formations such as Persian Immortals; Medieval Knight with firearms; oh, and whilst I remember, Tibetan Cataphracts with bows? Are these going to be very expensive troops with lots of different things they can do, or are they going to loose some of their abilities as not so important to their main job, as in DBX? Some of them may be dubious abilities anyway, don't know for sure as I'm not a scholar, just read a few books and the army lists.

phil

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Post by hammy » Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:27 pm

There are not troops in AoW that have full effect in shooting, impact and melee. There are some e.g. Byzantine Tagmatics who are Bow*/Lance/Swordsmen or Assyrian elite cavalry who are Bow*/Light spear/Swordsmen. Bow* is a reduced effect bow, less effective than normal bow.

Some infantry get multiple combinations of weapons. I expect that Tupi will be mostly Bow*/Impact foot/Swordsmen. Late Roman legionaries do not have the old 6th and 7th edition heavy throwing weapon, light spear, darts and caltrops. I don't know if tibettan cataphracts will have bow*, they might, it depends on how much their doctrine relied on missile fire.

There are troops who were armed with multiple weapons who don't get POA's for all of them so Arab Ghilmen are Bow/-/Swordsmen despite the fact that most of them carried lances. They do not get lancer POA as they did not use lancer style tactics.

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Post by dunhelm » Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:41 pm

I've been following development of AOW with interest and like what I've read and heard about. The tie in with Osprey looks a nice move to me.
Many of us who are in the process of building an army would be interested to know the implications for our current project. I dare say others share a feeling of being betwixt and between with AOW and DBMM. In my case I am currently working on Neo Assyrian Later Sargonids. Would you be able to give me any tasters of how AoW treats the troop types of Sennacherib, especially the chariots, on which little has been reported so far?
Thanks
Dunhelm

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Post by rbodleyscott » Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:53 pm

dunhelm wrote:I've been following development of AOW with interest and like what I've read and heard about. The tie in with Osprey looks a nice move to me.
Many of us who are in the process of building an army would be interested to know the implications for our current project. I dare say others share a feeling of being betwixt and between with AOW and DBMM. In my case I am currently working on Neo Assyrian Later Sargonids. Would you be able to give me any tasters of how AoW treats the troop types of Sennacherib, especially the chariots, on which little has been reported so far?
Thanks
Dunhelm

The chariots are Heavy Chariots, Superior, Drilled, Bow. (Chariotry is not differentiated by armour class)

The cavalry are Cavalry, Armoured, Superior or Average, Drilled. Either half light spear, swordsmen, half bow, swordsmen, or all Bow*, light spear, swordsmen.

(Bow* is a reduced effect bow category for troops who are not primarily bowmen).

Foot are heavy or medium foot, protected (some armoured), drilled, average (some superior), half light spear, swordsmen, half bow,-

Plus assorted Light Foot skirmishers, levies and other small contingents.

A pretty effective army, though the foot do not stand up well against later western heavy foot types (like hoplites etc).

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Post by dunhelm » Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:44 pm

Thanks
I've seen enough to get the gist of other troop types, but how do chariots work in AOW?
Duhelm

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Post by philqw78 » Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:03 pm

So then, are Late Romans / Byzantine Skutatoi and similar Heavy Foot going to be given a missile capability due to their darts/throwing spears/javelins? Or is this subsumed in some other part of the combat, or considered non-effective anyway?

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Post by plewis66 » Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:11 pm

Not a definitive answer, but I believe the POA 'Impact Foot', which is a good POA in terms of both its strength (as good as ++) and its applicability is designed to cover the use of darts, javelins and pila as part of the charge.

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Post by rbodleyscott » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:01 pm

philqw78 wrote:So then, are Late Romans / Byzantine Skutatoi and similar Heavy Foot going to be given a missile capability due to their darts/throwing spears/javelins? Or is this subsumed in some other part of the combat, or considered non-effective anyway?
We wanted to avoid the lack of historical realism in previous rules sets caused by allowing troops with throwing weapons excessive missile power.

Therefore we only allow distant shooting for troops geared up for prolonged missile exchanges. Essentially this means most troops equipped with long range missile weapons such as bows, crossbows, longbows etc. and also specialist skirmishers (Light Foot and Light Horse) with javelins.

Heavier troops with throwing weapons (whether pila, throwing axes, javelins, darts or atlatl) are assumed to retain them for use just before close combat, and the effect is built into their Impact phase POAs. They don't get a distant shooting capability.

In play-testing we find that this gives a nice balance.
Last edited by rbodleyscott on Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by rbodleyscott » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:05 pm

dunhelm wrote:I've seen enough to get the gist of other troop types, but how do chariots work in AOW?
Duhelm
Hard to explain this without cutting and pasting a large section of the rules, which is beyond the remit of this board.

Suffice it to say that chariots are dealt with differently from other mounted troops and have their own POAs (Points of Advantage) intended to bring out their historical characteristics. They are not treated as a clone of knights or cavalry etc.

Heavy Chariots make good shock troops.
Light Chariots are better at skirmishing, but can engage in close combat.
Scythed chariots are vicious but are destroyed if they don't rout the enemy in one bound.

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Post by shall » Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:11 am

I can safely say that the top heavy chariots are preatty damn tough.

If it gives you any comfort the Sargonid Assyrian army clobbered my hittites last time RBS and I played for a day. Both armies are very solid and want to lead with the HCh. Both armies will play fine out of period too - but will need to be played properly to their strengths.

Si
Last edited by shall on Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by rbodleyscott » Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:42 am

shall wrote:If it gives you any comfort the Sargonid Assyrian army clobbered by hittites last time RBS and I played for a day.
Not much comfort there. However, what Simon is trying to say, in his usual keyboard-challenged way, is that the Assyrians clobbered his Hittites.

Also the battle did not take a day, it took 2 and a half hours! We played another one in the afternoon, which was similarly quick. (Which he won with Nikephorian Byzantines vs Samanids)

shall
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Post by shall » Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:29 am

Indeed...as Richard says I am technically challenged when it comes to typing.......as my PA use to say

Simon 130 words per minute
PA 110 words per minue

Simon 30 correct words a minute!
PA 110 correct words a minute!

I do my best. :oops: And some of my typos have given people hours of pleasure :D

It was indeed MY hittites not BY hittites

Si

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Post by dunhelm » Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:09 pm

Thanks, chaps for these insights. One more favour: any tips on BG size for the Sargonids? As I say, I'm building the army at present and, while I can use DBM list ranges for the number of elements, it would of course be helpful to plan now with AOW in mind.
regards
Dunhelm

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Post by shall » Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:54 pm

As a rough guide I would imagine...(having just looked at the DBM list and compared to my recollections of the game).....

The DBM list isn't a bad guide for numbers of bases - just organised very differently and the troops will feel very different to use.

I expect if you built up a 450pt DBm army you would alredy have the figures for an AOW army.

Main difference is less horde (mob in AOW). Likely to need about 10 of these...so economise there to save painting troops you may not use.

8 chariots. 8-12 Cav. All the normal foot. All going to pay a role as main BGs in AOW version.

All completely unofficial of course....hope it helps make the painting choices.:-)

Cheers

Si

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Post by rbodleyscott » Sat Feb 17, 2007 6:20 pm

dunhelm wrote:Thanks, chaps for these insights. One more favour: any tips on BG size for the Sargonids? As I say, I'm building the army at present and, while I can use DBM list ranges for the number of elements, it would of course be helpful to plan now with AOW in mind.
regards
Dunhelm
The most important difference is that the back rank archers in the foot battle groups are Medium Foot (hence 3 or 4 to a base - same size bases as DBM Bowmen) and not 2 to a base (Psiloi) as in DBM.

Unfortunately, making them psiloi was the only way we (Phil and I) could make Assyrians work with the DBM mechanisms - which meant rebasing for DBM from older WRG rules. Having them as closer order archers is a better representation and hence we have reverted to that for AoW.

At the moment the line foot are in battle groups of 6-8 bases, the chariots and cavalry in BGs of 4-6 bases. I cannot guarantee this won't change before publication.

Total maxima are a little more generous than the DBM lists.

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