Battle of Civitate 1053 AD

[ZeaBed]

I realize that. But figures identified as knights still fight better than those designated as cavalry, even if they have identical battle values (I.e. armor, drilled/undrilled, etc.). Given the tenuous balance in this scenario those designations make huge difference IMO.

[redcoat2]

I haven't suggested that you designate the Papal knights as cavalry rather than knights. I only suggested a change in the figurine used.

[ZeaBed]

I see. But a cavalry figurine designated as a knight would still function as just cavalry in the game. There is a difference.

[redcoat2]

You can edit the 'Battlegroup Properties' of whatever figure you want to use for your Papal Knights. If you use a figure which has its default 'Unit Type' as 'Cavalry' you can change it to 'Knights.' Then that unit will function as knights in the game. Surely?

[batesmotel]

The crusader and crusader-other folders have the images from Swords and Scimitars, including the First Crusade (1097). I replaced the Papal knights with the image crusader/crusader-Kn-knight-11-12c-a (and the general version, and the Papal protected cavalry with crusader-other/crusader-Cav-turcopole-a to give the images a more period appearance.

Chris

[ZeaBed]

Good choice. Thanks for sharing that. It makes sense to me.

[redcoat2]

I quite like the crusader-other/crusader-cav-turcopole-a figure for the Papal protected cavalry. Given that the other figures are armoured.

I’m not keen on the crusader/crusader-Kn-knight-11-12c-a general model. It includes a long-haired sack-clothed pilgrim who looks like he could only be from the Crusades. After thrashing around for a replacement the best I could find was norman/norman-kn-knights-with-lance-a-general for the Papal leaders (because of the Crosses on the shields!). This figure is currently used by the Norman army – but they could use norman/norman-kn-knights-with-lance-b-general instead.

I like the crusader/crusader-Kn-knight-11-12c-a figure. It could be used for all the armoured Papal army knights/cavalry – including the Lombards. I think the current figures for the Lombard cavalry look like Lombards from an earlier century.

I believe the Lombard archers and crossbowmen also look rather anachronistic: 7th to 8th Century. Perhaps they could also have a more period appearance? Moreover, at the moment the crossbowmen figures are shown with shortbows.

I still think that the Byzantine figures could be used for the (non-Lombard) Italian armoured cavalry. But it is a matter of taste and I am quite happy either way. Here is a drawing of an Italian horseman from the 11th Century. He is wearing laminate armour of Byzantine design rather than chainmail – but he does not look too dissimilar from Norman horsemen of the same time.

italian.GIF (27.45 KiB) Viewed 3286 times

[ZeaBed]

The crusader and crusader-other folders have the images from Swords and Scimitars, including the First Crusade (1097). I replaced the Papal knights with the image crusader/crusader-Kn-knight-11-12c-a (and the general version, and the Papal protected cavalry with crusader-other/crusader-Cav-turcopole-a to give the images a more period appearance.

Chris

Chris, I've looked at the selections you mentioned and they look fine with me and I too would prefer to use those figures. One question, when you assigned the crusader-other/crusader-Cav-turcopole-a to the Papal protected cavalry, did you retain their bows or did you strip off that feature? It's good that the scenario editor allows us to tailor these user made scenarios to our particular tastes and preferences.

Achieving gaming balance is a different proposition, as attested by several scenarios, most notably imo, Agincourt. A what-if version of Civitate could conceivably keep a forward contingent of the Byzantine army on one edge of the board, ready to go into action only if the Normans are not able to defeat the Papal forces after a given number of turns. Just a thought for others to consider.

[ZeaBed]

Once more into the breach dear friends...

Well, I've just uploaded version 3.2. I've incorporated suggestions and tried to fine tune the balance factor. This will be my final version. I've tried to keep the figurines authentic and contemporary within reason and possibility, given the fact that this battle took place some 959 years ago and amid the muddle of the medieval period.

Should it become evident that any of the current figures are a tad anachronistic, like wearing the wrong shields or carrying cellphones perhaps, please feel free to edit your copy (if anyone is actually downloading this scenario) in the scenario editor, even unto Normans fighting Normans, and use it that way, or even post it as an alternate version in this forum, as has been done in the past with earlier scenarios.

[batesmotel]

The crusader and crusader-other folders have the images from Swords and Scimitars, including the First Crusade (1097). I replaced the Papal knights with the image crusader/crusader-Kn-knight-11-12c-a (and the general version, and the Papal protected cavalry with crusader-other/crusader-Cav-turcopole-a to give the images a more period appearance.

Chris

Chris, I've looked at the selections you mentioned and they look fine with me and I too would prefer to use those figures. One question, when you assigned the crusader-other/crusader-Cav-turcopole-a to the Papal protected cavalry, did you retain their bows or did you strip off that feature? It's good that the scenario editor allows us to tailor these user made scenarios to our particular tastes and preferences.

Achieving gaming balance is a different proposition, as attested by several scenarios, most notably imo, Agincourt. A what-if version of Civitate could conceivably keep a forward contingent of the Byzantine army on one edge of the board, ready to go into action only if the Normans are not able to defeat the Papal forces after a given number of turns. Just a thought for others to consider.

I specifically edited the existing battle group properties in your scenario and just changed the image and image folder properties so this didn't effect the weapons or other combat capabilities for the battle groups.

Chris

[ZeaBed]

Thanks for the reply. I did the same thing for this last version I've recently uploaded. And now there are crossbows we can see.

[ZeaBed]

My final-final version (3.3) available now at the top of the thread.

[ZeaBed]

A recent screen capture of a Papal victory. The hill is the key.

[ZeaBed]

I've forsworn myself and posted yet another version of this scenario. Version 4.0 is now downloadable from the original post link.

Just very minor changes and adjustments this time.