Davout at Auerstadt

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ravenflight
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Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:11 pm

Gg'day all,

I don't own the rules. May or may not get involved... Haven't made up my mind yet.

My favourite battle is the battle of Auerstadt. I'm wondering is 'under the rules' it would be possible to build this army? As in, 3 divisions of infantry, 1 Chasseur a cheval and a bit of arty.

Would it be 'legal' according to the lists?

KendallB
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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by KendallB » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:43 pm

Yes to both!

It would be a very effective force as well.

ravenflight
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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:52 am

KendallB wrote:Yes to both!

It would be a very effective force as well.
Thanks for that. Can you guestimate the AP's of such a force?

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by BrettPT » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:58 am

I'll try.

Very roughly:

Morand's division: 4 x line, 1 x light, 1 x artillery
Friant's Division: 4 x line, artillery attachment
Gudin's Division: 4 x line, artillery attachment
Cavalry Division: 3 x chasseurs
Corps artillery: 1 x artillery


Assuming all iunits are small average veteran, about 940 points of troops. Davout and Friant being exceptional commanders, Morand and Gudin skilled, another 260 points for the generals, so 1200 points all up, give or take.

Do-able for a club game, although the 'standard' tournament points we have been using are 800 so you would have to play with it a bit to get 800 points - probably leave behind Morand's division and downgrade Friant to skilled.

Cheers
Brett

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:03 am

BrettPT wrote:I'll try.

Very roughly:

Morand's division: 4 x line, 1 x light, 1 x artillery
Friant's Division: 4 x line, artillery attachment
Gudin's Division: 4 x line, artillery attachment
Cavalry Division: 3 x chasseurs
Corps artillery: 1 x artillery


Assuming all iunits are small average veteran, about 940 points of troops. Davout and Friant being exceptional commanders, Morand and Gudin skilled, another 260 points for the generals, so 1200 points all up, give or take.

Do-able for a club game, although the 'standard' tournament points we have been using are 800 so you would have to play with it a bit to get 800 points - probably leave behind Morand's division and downgrade Friant to skilled.

Cheers
Brett
Thanks Brett,

Poor old Vialannes... doesn't even get a mention :( (jk)

So, approximately how many figures would be in each of the divisions?

Do the rules distinguish between 4lbers and 6lbers? Just interested, because the French didn't have the 6lbers yet... they had to win the battle first :)

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by BrettPT » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:54 am

So, approximately how many figures would be in each of the divisions?
small units of infantry have 4 bases, with 6 or 8 figures each on them (8 looks best if they are smallish 15mm or perhaps march attack pose, otherwise 6 figures looks best IMO). So say 24 figures per infantry unit, 100 odd per division.

cavalry in units of 12, artillery units have 2 guns, attached artillery a single model, plus some officer bases for generals.

By my count about 300 infantry (400 if you base them in 8's), say 50 mounted (including generals and some couriers), 6 guns and a couple of limber bases for the division.
Do the rules distinguish between 4lbers and 6lbers? Just interested, because the French didn't have the 6lbers yet... they had to win the battle first :)
Nope. You have 'field' artillery and horse artillery' (9lbers or less) and heavy artillery (12lbers).

Cheers
Brett

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by adonald » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:32 pm

Nope. You have 'field' artillery and horse artillery' (9lbers or less) and heavy artillery (12lbers).

Cheers
Brett
9lb British guns are heavy artillery, apparently. The cut-off must be 8lb.

Alastair Donald

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:59 am

Thanks all for your comments.

Can I lastly ask, how are the bases setup for:

Line
Light
Light cavalry (Chasseur à Cheval) and
Artillery?

I see from the tentative list that they are certainly more than 40mm x 15/20mm for foot as per the other FoG rules.

As an aside, I'm seriously considering painting some units for sale to get rid of some AB lead I've got lying around.

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by BrettPT » Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:57 am

Pretty much everything is based on 40mm x 30mm (the old DBM cavalry base)

The only things not on a 40x30 are the line of communication marker (think army camp - 60mm x 60mm); the CinC and his divisional commanders (40mm x 40mm); heavy artillery (40mm x 40mm); and limbers (40mm by whatever depth you need).

Cheers
Brett

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:21 pm

Hi Guys,

Ok, necro-posting... but I'm now getting a little closer to the chance of actually playing this. One of my friends is now into FoG:N which naturally increases the chances of me being into it :).

So, I'm just wondering more about this formation that I'm considering. I know that III Corps should be tough as nails, but I'm just wondering about things like heavy cavalry and the like. Let's say you come across a force which isn't necessarily ahistorical, but more 'min-maxed' so something like Cuirassiers, Line infantry and Heavy Artillery. I'd expect the chasseurs to be totally outclassed by the heavys and would avoid fighting them, but can you actually mix it with cuirassiers with something like III Corps?

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by Blathergut » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:30 pm

That sort of question has been asked many times.

Cuirassiers will run down just about any other horse if faced one-on-one. Cuirassiers will run down infantry unless in square.

But one of the delights of FoGN is that combined arms and close support of one troop type with another can even up the odds against just about any opponent.

Deadtorius and I have seen swarms of Austrian (and French) cuirassiers shot and halted, kept from the infantry by cavalry support. Artillery kept close at hand can also keep the cuirassiers at bay. If something can be picked off by them, or if they are able to pass through squares and have nothing behind to face, the cuirassiers can caused major damage. Just keep the French tight, each troop type supported by others. If you have quality in the infantry (veteran) as well, that helps to bounce back from disordered status quickly.

As far as the French having cuirassiers, I find that once you pass 1800 or so, and by the time you get to 1805, definitely 1809, the quality has risen so much you simply can't afford swarms of cuirassiers. Dead. and I have been working our way slowly up through the years and are at 1800 at the moment. The French cuirassiers are just average but the quantity is very nice!!!!! Three small units (with a unit of dragoons tossed in if the initiative is high enough) make for a very potent cavalry division. Later on it just isn't possible to have along with sufficient quantity of infantry to deal with the hordes of Austrians usually traipsing about on the table!!

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by Saxonian » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:44 pm

Greetings, and welcome to the dark side :)

To answer your question, in a straight cav on cav fight, cuirassiers will usually eat chasseurs for breakfast - but as you say, the chasseurs would try to avoid that match-up if at all possible. But the great thing about these rules is that they reward combined arms. Cav of any type will often bounce off squares unless they have been already weakened, so the min-max combinations can sometimes find it difficult under certain circumstances. Quality heavy cav is expensive in points, so in 800pt battles there is often not a lot of them. And if there is, there probably won't be much else. And cav can be a bit fragile in FOGN.

Napoleonics is a bit different to ancients, medieval or renaissance - there was none of the technological differences between armies that is common in the earlier periods, a factor of the span of years being reduced to around 25 years instead of several centuries. There are no "killer" armies (though the French Old Guard are pretty hard!!), it is more organisation and troop quality and tactics that make the difference.

This is one of the things I like most about these rules. Any army design will have its inherent strengths and weaknesses, it is up to the player as to how these come into play. Any given combo has a chance to win - and I have lost to some that I thought I should have creamed. :?

Hope this helps.

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by BrettPT » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:03 am

Echoing the others, if 3rd Corps found itself facing an enemy 'Panzer Division' (heavy cavalry horde) you would certainly try to hide your Chasseurs, initially at least.

Panzer Divisions win games by seeking out enemy mounted and killing them, which often takes the receiving army close to break point.
The counter is to not give enemy heavies any cavalry targets. They are then reduced to trying to find open flanks to exploit, or attempting a hail-mary charge against a block of fresh veteran foot.

Good infantry, supported in blocks should have little to fear from enemy mounted. Facing a Panzer Division with 3rd Corps I would generally advance aggressively with the infantry against enemy mounted (especially if they don't have artillery/infantry in close support) and try to reduce the cohesion of the enemy horse with medium range skirmish and artillery fire. The enemy mounted are then faced with the option of either charging fresh supported foot (not good odds for the horsies on this), or trying to extricate their mounted from the area before they start taking cohesion losses from the shooting. My Austrian Cuirassiers have been undone on more than one occasion by Andy Duncan using this tactic against me.

- The 3rd Corps Chasseurs I would keep in a second line, moving up behind the infantry to stop the enemy horse passing through if they charge, and as a reserve fire brigade if the enemy try to flank your line. If they are still in reserve near the end of the battle, they should find plenty of degraded enemy units to charge and finish off. They may also be able to assist the infantry in combined arms assaults (although these are good in theory, they are hard to organise in practise).

If enemy mounted try going around a flank (hopefully terrain will limit this), the flanking cavalry units often get strung out and you may get the chance to mob a single advance cavalry unit with 2 reserve chasseur regiments.

2 units of LC v 1 of Cuirassiers changes the odds nicely in favour of the LC. (On even odds the LC will waiver the HC, or with a ounce of luck rout them. Most likely each of the LC units will end disordered. If the LC charge in their turn, at least 1 LC units should get to pursue retiring HC).

Cheers
Brett

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:18 pm

Thanks for comments all

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by geoff » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:22 pm

No need to worry mate, my Prussians won't be having any Cuirrassiers any time soon :)
Prepare for Hussars, Dragoons and Uhlans - more than likely a fair proportion of the awesome Landwehr cavalry!

Geoff

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:33 am

geoff wrote:No need to worry mate, my Prussians won't be having any Cuirrassiers any time soon :)
Prepare for Hussars, Dragoons and Uhlans - more than likely a fair proportion of the awesome Landwehr cavalry!

Geoff
Ahh, but you see, it's me who is going to build a Cuirassier division... and I'm subtly trying to find out how to ride over the top of Prussians :)

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by geoff » Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:55 am

We'll played !! 8)

ravenflight
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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by ravenflight » Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:46 pm

Ok, I might be missing something here... but it seems that 'you can't make III Corps'.

list = French Infantry Corps D'Armee 1805-1807.

Must have 8 bases of Legere (III Corps has 4-6), and can only have maximum 48 bases of Line... where III Corps has around 52! You must have 2 Batteries of Artillery (III Corps had 1).

Am I missing something here?

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by shadowdragon » Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:54 pm

ravenflight wrote:Ok, I might be missing something here... but it seems that 'you can't make III Corps'.

list = French Infantry Corps D'Armee 1805-1807.

Must have 8 bases of Legere (III Corps has 4-6), and can only have maximum 48 bases of Line... where III Corps has around 52! You must have 2 Batteries of Artillery (III Corps had 1).

Am I missing something here?
Don't actual orbits trump the lists?

So more line and fewer legere than the lists.

With respect to the artillery they as Brett indicated 13 guns (2 bases or 1 unit) in the 1st div, 8 in each of the 2nd and 3rd divs (1 base each as attachments) and 17 guns (2 bases or 1 unit). in the corps reserve. I see no issue here.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jena-Aue ... _of_Battle

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Re: Davout at Auerstadt

Post by hazelbark » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:56 pm

I am working up this scenario for our group.
Having played 1806 Prussians a good bit the Prussian infantry just gets cut down by the French. The only reason the Prussians are viable is they have more cavalry distributed around the army. So historically at Auerstadt the Prussians had a big cavalry advantage. It looks to be a good match up historically in game rules.

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