1 of 2 shooting queries

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KeefM
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1 of 2 shooting queries

Post by KeefM » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:12 am

1. Firing Ranges: the rules state (page 48/49, last/first sentence) "Use the shortest distance between any point of the firing unit and the target when calculating range."

2. Identifying Targets: the rules state (page 51, first sentence in section): "Artilerry and Infantry can fire at any target straight ahead" etc.


query:

Do you use either option a) the directly closest distance to a target to measure the range ? . . . or option b) the closest distance straight ahead of the firing unit ? Both can be inferred from the rules.

NB: When units approach at angles to each other, it is entirely possible to engineer a situation whereby one unit shoots at another at medium range, while the return fire is at close range under option b) whereas under option a) both shoot at the same range.

BrettPT
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Re: 1 of 2 shooting queries

Post by BrettPT » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:46 am

I have always thought these rules deal with 2 different things: arc and range.

I see two steps to go through:

1. Is the target in arc? - use page 51, some part of the target must be straight ahead. If you are in arc, then:
2. Are you in range? This is done be measuring the closest distance between the units (pp 48-49).

If both 1 & 2 are "yes", then you can shoot.

In my view it is possible to come at a target on an angle and be, say, 7MU away from the target in a direct line stright ahead. However if the shortest distance from the corner of your unit to the enemy is 6MU, you can shoot - you are both in arc and in range. So long as the enemy has you in arc as well, he will be able to return fire at the same range.

Philip
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Re: 1 of 2 shooting queries

Post by Philip » Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:36 am

Option A seems to be correct, you measure between the closest points, even if those points are outside the area of fire.

This means that if you want to shoot at a target without reply you must manoeuvre to get completely outside the frontal arc, rather than the cheesy move of positioning a unit at an angle in front of the target. Anything that reduces geometrical ploys from the game is a good thing.

alcibiades
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Re: 1 of 2 shooting queries

Post by alcibiades » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:40 pm

Just following up on this post. Our group had our first game of FOG-N the other night and of course a number of questions arose. One of which is related to the original question of this post.

At p.51, the rules state "Infantry can fire at any target straight ahead..."

This is further modified at p. 51 by:

Bullet 3 - No unit may fire at a target if a line cannot be drawn from the centre of the firing unit to any part of the target; and,

Bullet 4 - The firers will fire as if 1 cohesion level lower if a line cannot be drawn from both its front corners to a target unit.

The diagram on p. 52 shows the area of fire for an artillery battery and a small infantry unit. In both cases the "area of fire" extends directly to the front of the unit.

However, the diagram on p.53 seems to contradict both the stated rules and the previous diagram. In particular, the firing by Unit B which the text says is permitted to fire all its dice at the artillery. However, it is clear that a line drawn perpendicularly from the centre of the unit would not contact any part of the battery. Likewise, Infantry Unit E does not meet the requirement of being able to draw a line from the centre of the unit to any part of the target unit.

So, is the following interpretation correct? A unit may be targeted by a firing unit if some part of the target unit lays within the firer's "area of fire" which is a rectangular box extending directly to the front of the unit. However, in addition, the firer must be able to draw a line, which does not have to be perpendicular (ie at 90 degrees to the firer's front) and may be angled, to some part of the target. Finally, in order for the firer to fire at full effect, the firer must be able to draw a line from both its front corners to the target. These lines do not have to be parallel to the firer's flanks but may be angled.

Is this correct? Thanks guys.

I think there's a good set of rules here but the layout and lack of clarity in many instances certainly detracts. It took us 20 minutes to figure out how to move and unlimber artillery. Why the rules did not clearly spell out such a fundamental manoeuvre was beyond us. Thankfully the forum seems to hold all the answers. Anyway, we are looking forward to picking up where we left off on Friday.

I'm sure other questions shall arise, but so far we have been able to find the answers to most of our questions here.

Cheers

Kent

deadtorius
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Re: 1 of 2 shooting queries

Post by deadtorius » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:48 pm

think you got it right. The area of fire is directly in front of the shooting unit, extending a straight line from the side edges as it were. If any part of the target falls within the area of fire they can be shot at. Whether the target is directly parallel or at an angle is irrelevant.

To determine if a shooting unit is being blocked, you must be able to trace LOS from the center of the shooters to the target, if the LOS is blocked you can't shoot. If you can trace a clear LOS to any part of the target unit you can shoot.

You trace LOS from both corners of the shooting unit if there is a friendly unit between target and shooter, if the shooting units LOS passes across the friendly unit you count as being disrupted for shooting, you lose 1 die per 3 since not all of your line can fire. simple method of being partially blocked.

large unit shooting as a small unit: Large unit is 3 wide ABC
A is within range and arc of an enemy, the rest of the unit is out of range or arc. Base A gets to shoot. Base B counts as shooting since they are adjacent to A. C does not get to shoot as its out of range and arc.
In this case the large unit counts as a small unit for shooting purposes and gets the number of dice a small unit gets.

Same situation where bases A and B are within arc and range.
Bases A and B shoot. Base C is adjacent to shooting base B and counts for shooting.
The unit shoots as a large unit even though base C is out of arc or range.

Hope this was clear for you and helps answer your questions.

alcibiades
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Re: 1 of 2 shooting queries

Post by alcibiades » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:15 am

Wow...thanks for such a speedy response and clarification. That nicely explains the shooting rules.

Looking forward to finishing our first game tomorrow night. So far things are looking pretty good for the French but time will tell. It is not uncommon for me to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory... :wink:

Cheers
Kent

deadtorius
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Re: 1 of 2 shooting queries

Post by deadtorius » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:36 pm

Good luck, my Austrians often find themselves throwing victory into the jaws of the French....
Although some times we do manage to get a draw.
Unfortunately I can't give any pointers on how to roll dice :oops:

KeefM
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Re: 1 of 2 shooting queries

Post by KeefM » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:44 pm

Terry, I am bumping this to the top to get your view as to what you intended in the rules. It would be nice to have a universal interpretation of this one.

Is the correct interpretation Option A) or Option B) from my original post on this ??

Many thanks.

SirGarnet
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Re: 1 of 2 shooting queries

Post by SirGarnet » Fri May 02, 2014 8:37 am

KeefM wrote:Do you use either option a) the directly closest distance to a target to measure the range ? . . . or option b) the closest distance straight ahead of the firing unit ? Both can be inferred from the rules.
No they can't be inferred thus - as you quoted yourself, "shortest distance between any point of the firing unit and the target", so unless you are arguing the target is not a unit but some part of a unit, it is unambiguous.

I would agree that an improved diagram could show all the conditions in play at one time.

terrys
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Re: 1 of 2 shooting queries

Post by terrys » Fri May 02, 2014 11:51 am

Sorry for not getting this reply to you earlier - I did write it and post it, but it got lost somewhere (I think my connection timed out before I hit submit.
1. Firing Ranges: the rules state (page 48/49, last/first sentence) "Use the shortest distance between any point of the firing unit and the target when calculating range."

2. Identifying Targets: the rules state (page 51, first sentence in section): "Artillery and Infantry can fire at any target straight ahead" etc.
Taking these point in reverse order:
> A unit can fire at any unit any part of which is directly ahead.
> The range is calculated by measuring the shortest distance between the 2 units.

So:
To qualify as a close range target, the enemy must be at least partially to the front of the firers, and some part of the enemy must be within 2MU..... The 2MU distance need NOT be directly to the front of the firers.

There are 2 reasons why we made this the rule:
1) Not all the integral battalions of the firing unit would necessarily be facing in the exact same direction.
2) It stops the sneaky trick of advancing up to an enemy at a slight angle so that you can fire at close range and not receive fire back at the same range.
If you want to fire at the enemy without him firing back (at the same range) your unit must be entirely outside his front.

deadtorius
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Re: 1 of 2 shooting queries

Post by deadtorius » Fri May 02, 2014 5:09 pm

That is one to try and remember for sure. I have been the victim of such sneaky tricks in the past,

Blathergut
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Re: 1 of 2 shooting queries

Post by Blathergut » Fri May 02, 2014 10:18 pm

we prefer to think of them as brilliant maneuvers 8)

MikeHorah
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Re: 1 of 2 shooting queries

Post by MikeHorah » Sat May 03, 2014 8:06 am

Other points are that in any " I go you go" system there is an element of reality dysfunction. In truth one side would not necessarily sit there transfixed while the opposition so cunningly disposed themselves. ( How ungentlemanly when compared with the Age of Reason :shock: ) . Action- reaction- counteraction are somewhat constrained, or at any rate confined within a strict time management system. But simultaneous and parallel events and actions are de-constructed in most game systems if only through having separate fire and movement phases.

Similar issues dog cavalry actions in "I go you go". Its a case of balancing one set of game mechanics against others each of which have their advantages and disadvantages . "We both go" has as many design perils if not more. So we accept trade offs.

It is also the case that the greater precision of standard base sizes and formations we have in many miniatures games systems while enabling better " cleaner" games also masks the reality of the lack of such precision in the real world. We are able to impose a uniformity and conformity that Colonels and Sgt Majors might only dream of, or which only the parade ground can offer :lol:

And as Terry says within the unit footprint not everything is symmetrically disposed and indeed may even be moving around . :roll:

All that said I do hope we have not forestalled the ability to replicate manoeuvres such as that towards the end of Waterloo where the British wheeled a unit so as to pour fire into the flank of the advancing Imperial Guard.

KeefM
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Re: 1 of 2 shooting queries

Post by KeefM » Mon May 05, 2014 3:15 am

Just to be very clear . . .

Terry, in his answer, used the example of a unit moving at an angle so as to place itself within 2MU of the opposing unit while being outside of 2MU to the front of that opposining unit. In this example, both units shoot at close range.

The question I raised initially was about the same sort of arrangement taking place at medium range. That is, moving a unit at an angle so it is within 6MU of the opposing unit but further than 6MU from the front of that opposing unit. From Terry's example, this would mean that both units exchnage fire at within 6MU ??

The only way to avoid the return fire is by NOT being directly in front of that opposing unit.

terrys
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Re: 1 of 2 shooting queries

Post by terrys » Mon May 05, 2014 8:31 am

The question I raised initially was about the same sort of arrangement taking place at medium range. That is, moving a unit at an angle so it is within 6MU of the opposing unit but further than 6MU from the front of that opposing unit. From Terry's example, this would mean that both units exchnage fire at within 6MU ??
That is also true - although, at both close and medium range a large unit would probably be firing as a small unit.

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