Orcs and Goblins

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Rekila
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Orcs and Goblins

Post by Rekila » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:55 pm

Hello all. I am about to begin rebasing my Orc and Goblin army for FoG and have some doubts about troop types. Orcs looks like MF I think, but I’m unsure about goblins. All ideas should be welcome and I would like to know if some consensus have been achieved about troop types.

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by eldiablito » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:07 pm

I think it largely depends on WHAT type of orc/goblin; IOW, which fantasy setting? These are just off the top of my head... Totally half-baked ideas...

For Tolkien, I would use HF or MF, protected, undrilled, average or poor. Their weapons can vary: offensive spear or pike (for the movie version of Sauroman's army); light spear & swordsmen; some bow or crossbow.

For GW orcs, HF, protected (armoured for Black Orcs), undrilled (drilled for Black Orcs), and average (superior for Big'Uns and Black Orcs). Their weapons could be a choice from: offensive spear; impact foot & swordsmen (sometimes Bow*); heavy weapons (I seem to recall that choppas in different versions have an effect on enemy armour).

For GW goblins, MF, unprotected to protected, undrilled, and poor. Their weapons would be: defensive spear; bow; light spear. You might want to use their fanatics rules by adding in impact foot too (for only 1 or 2 BGs).

which direction were you planning?

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by Rekila » Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:05 pm

Well I have mainly GW goblins, at first I thought to make them poor HF, defensive spear, undrilled . As the idea of massed poor goblins packed on fear clutching to their spears appeals to me. But undrilled, defensive spear looks odd so maybe, MF, light spear works better, in any case Night goblins should be HF defensive spear or HW (I have a nice unit with fanatics!). For Orcs, Undrilled, MF, Impact foot ,sword, Superior or average was the idea, as HF seems to slow for Orcs. For lesser Goblins, etc I thing Poor, Mob will be enough. Also I’m in doubt of deploying Orc Bows separately or mix them and make all orc units bow*. By the way thanks for the quick answer and the ideas.

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by eldiablito » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:10 pm

Rekila wrote: MF, light spear works better, in any case Night goblins should be HF defensive spear or HW (I have a nice unit with fanatics!).
I would be careful with heavy weapons as fanatics; It just runs counter to the ever changing GW fluff. :roll:

Heavy weapons really only take effect in melee rounds and fanatics happen when troops get close. The fanatics are released and then they are done in most cases. That sounds like the impact phase only. So, although poor, unprotected, defensive spear and impact foot seems strange, it does sound like most night goblin units. Perhaps unprotected, bow, impact foot too.

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by Rekila » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:55 pm

eldiablito wrote: The fanatics are released and then they are done in most cases. That sounds like the impact phase only. So, although poor, unprotected, defensive spear and impact foot seems strange, it does sound like most night goblin units. Perhaps unprotected, bow, impact foot too.
Sorry I make a confusing statement, the unit have spears, nets and clubs, so the idea was Impact foot, and either, d. spear or HW. Swarm type units are another controversial point as Poor, Mob seems wrong but making them Monsters (i.e elephants) looks even more strange! An finally any ideas for Goblins on spiders.

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by eldiablito » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:52 pm

Swarms are unbreakable which does NOT and probably SHOULD NOT exist in FoG. Poor Mob fits the price and concept of GW swarms. Perhaps this represents more of how easily they can be squashed in GW and less on how they are "unbreakable".

Another way to think about it is to remove them altogether and simply make more interesting stands. IOW, use some of your snottlings and add them to interesting places on your Orc and Goblin stands. I recall a cool snottling with a sling-shot: Use that guy in-between the legs or just behind an orc!

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by SirGarnet » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:34 am

There are various FOG conceptions of Orcs, Goblins and other fantasy types in different fantasy worlds among the files on the FOG_Fantasy yahoo group site.

A lot depends on their foes and how they are supposed to interact tactically.

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by Rekila » Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:54 am

Here is the draft list:
Goblins MF Un/Protected , poor, light spear/bow
Lesser goblins etc, Mob, Poor, but some BGs or bases can have sling, bow*or javelins capacity and/or be protected.
Night goblins. HF protected average, Impact foot and either optional HW or Defensive spear
Orcs. MF, Impact, sword (HW?), Superior or Average, Protected. With bow* as an option. One unit could be armored (elite?). Some primitive orcs can be unarmored.
Goblin wolf riders. LH. Un/protected, average light spear javelins.
Orc wolf riders. Cavalry Average, light spear sword, Bow* protected or armored
Orc boar riders. Superior lance sword, armored knights
Chariots: Heavy chariots, bow, average
Trolls: MF heavily armored. HW. Average. (Superior?)
Goblins on spiders: average camelry, Light spear sword.
Undrilled heavy Artillery.
Giants etc: elephants.
All undrilled.
And Half-orcs . Drilled: Average, HF or MF, with Defensive spear and the option of supporting bow LF, or MF with sword capacity. Treated as Allies.
All comments are welcome

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by ravenflight » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:53 am

Rekila wrote:Hello all. I am about to begin rebasing my Orc and Goblin army for FoG and have some doubts about troop types. Orcs looks like MF I think, but I’m unsure about goblins. All ideas should be welcome and I would like to know if some consensus have been achieved about troop types.
I'd base it more on what kind of representation you wish to have vs their 'historical opponents', not what they 'look' like.

For example:

If, in your opinion, they are mince meat against mounted then MF will be a good option. If they are solid against mounted then HF would be a better option. If they are semi tough then maybe MF Offensive Spearmen. You get what I mean?

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by Rekila » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:43 pm

Good point, as I want them to be weak but not completely useless!

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by eldiablito » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:07 pm

Again... I think that this is largely based on which universe and which troop type. As I'm sure everyone here is familiar with GW and their vision of orcs, I will probably sound a bit long-winded; I'm sorry in advance...

GW's night goblins are often archers or spear(goblins) with fanatics. Sometimes they have nets and clubs too. Most of these weapons are only used when the units charge or are being charged, so these guys are impact phase only. I, personally, would make this impact foot. Next, after the night goblins are charged, they will usually crumble and quickly! Unless the fanatics and nets do tons of damage, they will run immediately. So, I would make them poor and MF or Mob. In almost every case, night goblins do not wear armour, well, the spear armed gobos have shields, so they are unprotected. As a last point, they are undrilled.

GW's standard goblins also have spears, bows or just plain "hand weapons", however they also have some armour beyond the shields. So, I would make them protected. They do NOT get impact foot. However, they are only slightly better than night goblins at holding off a knightly charge (better leadership score in the game universe). For this reason, I would probably make them average, and MF or poor and HF. As a last point, they are undrilled.

A final option is to just ignore the differences altogether and simply create a big category called... wait for it... goblins! Now you can customize your goblins all you want... All would be poor, undrilled, and either MF or Mob. Then you can custom build their weapons and armour however you want and as many as you want: Protected, Unprotected, Impact foot, Defensive spear, Bow, Bow*. Hey, that's what GW did with their Warmaster line (probably my favorite of their miniatures). I always thought that goblins were supposed to be filler. They were not supposed to have resolve that resembled anything close to humans. So, poor and MF isn't absurd. If you take a few of these cheap filler units (at 2 points per stand) to create a huge army, isn't that staying true to the intent?

Orcs and Big'Uns should be significantly different. They are all protected and Undrilled. They can come as Bow*, Impact Foot, MF; Impact foot, swordsmen, HF; or as Offensive Spear, HF. One or two Battle Groups can be Superior to represent the Big'Uns.

Black Orcs are the final category. These guys must be HF, superior, armoured, and drilled. They are armed with either Impact Foot, swordsmen or just heavy weapons.

Chariots are well, chariots. Goblin versions could be scythed or light chariots with bows. Orc versions could be heavy chariots with light spears.

Wolf riders are LH with either bow and swordsmen or as light spear and javelin (although, I know they didn't actually HAVE javelins in the GW books).

Boar riders are obviously undrilled Cavalry. They would certainly be armoured, light spear, swordsmen and you can take a pick of average or superior.

Heck, I would look through the Germanic, Celtic, Dacian and British tribes in Legions Triumphant and Rise of Rome since most of the orcs units were heavily inspired by these tribes.

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by Rekila » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:45 pm

A good analysis, it really helped me. I agree that for night goblins Impact foot should be enough without any other capacity. I will give MF to all goblins and Orcs as that solves the rebasing problem , leaving for play-testing the definitive Poas. Even if Big’Uns would surely be classed as heavy, mine are so big that don’t fit in a standard heavy base so MF for all! As I have Orcs in wolfs and Boars I’ll divide mounted Orcs between cavalry and Undrilled knights .Finally coming back to the swarm question, a possibility that also could be used to others like undead, is to make them to lose a base for every test failed and/or combat lost, so even been unbreakable, auto break will finish them quickly without losing game balance, I will make some simple play-testing of that, making a few combats with “normal” units of the same points cost.

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by MatthewB » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:33 am

We have vrious Lord of the Rings based Orcs and Goblin Lists over at the Yahoo FoG Fantasy group.

Orcs come in various flavors of HF and MF, for the most part, with a few as Mobs (Is it Mobs or Hoards that FoG uses... I can't recall and don't have my rules handy).

Most of them are just basic Irregular, Inferior HF or MF - no other mods or attributes. Occasionally, there will be some with Heavy Weapons, or Bows or Bow*. And on a rare occasion, you might see some Orcs as Spear Armed (Offensive Spearmen), or as Swordsmen (These will be Half-Orcs mostly, or Uruk-Hai).

I'm not at all certain what the GW army lists would do with Orcs & Goblins... I haven't seen a GW fantasy army since the mid-80s.

All of my armies are either Thunderbolt Mountain, or GW Lord of the Rings minis (agonizing over whether to base on 60mm frontages, and really CRAM the miniatures in, or whether to base on 80mm frontages, and have the figures just a little dispersed - pity that Litko doesn't make 70mm frontage bases. That seems to be about the most appropriate frontage for the given number of models and the size these days).

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by youngr » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:26 pm

Rekila wrote:Hello all. I am about to begin rebasing my Orc and Goblin army for FoG and have some doubts about troop types. Orcs looks like MF I think, but I’m unsure about goblins. All ideas should be welcome and I would like to know if some consensus have been achieved about troop types.
Hi

I've designed My Goblin army using FOGR (which IMO is a better game). Goblin hordes are Mob (8-12 bases). Most are average or poor Warriors with either Bow or Impact Foot/Sword (6-8 bases). A few are armoured and superior. Some are also Light Foot with Bow. Trolls I use as Elephants with Heavy Weapon. Wolf riders are Light Horse with Light Spear. The army is vulnerable to cavalry in the open if the Trolls are avoided (unsurprisingly) and brittle. You could add artillery of some sort if you wish. Hope this helps.

Richard

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by Rekila » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:05 pm

Thanks. Yes I also prefers Fog(R) . Chariots are the only problem, but Determined foot looks o.k for Orcs.

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by davekhan » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:48 am

Hi rekila
I played a game at are local club using my orc army and this is what a put out
5 B.G Orcs Warband Undrilled med foot impact foot unarmoured ,av, swordsmen ..8-12 bases
2 B.G. Goblins undrilled med foot impact foot unarmoured Poor 12 bases each
1 B.G Orc med foot offensive spear Undrilled protected superior 8 bases
2 B.G Goblin Bow lt foot poor unprotected 8 bases
1.B.G wolfriders Lt horse lt spear(just for impact combat ,when the wolfs charge in !) AND Bow, unprotected swordsmen (more for the wolf fighting than the goblin.... :)
1 B.G trolls have had them in 3 bases Classed them as elephants and hvy armoured!
1 B.G wolf packs class them as hvy chariots ( that way they only fight in 1 rank but there is lost of them so get 2 dice ?
1 B.G orc bow med foot undrilled bow av.

all in all the game played well ,played against a 100 years war english army ish :lol:

happy gaming hope this helps DaveKhan

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by MatthewB » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:33 pm

davekhan wrote:Hi rekila
I played a game at are local club using my orc army and this is what a put out
5 B.G Orcs Warband Undrilled med foot impact foot unarmoured ,av, swordsmen ..8-12 bases
2 B.G. Goblins undrilled med foot impact foot unarmoured Poor 12 bases each
1 B.G Orc med foot offensive spear Undrilled protected superior 8 bases
2 B.G Goblin Bow lt foot poor unprotected 8 bases
1.B.G wolfriders Lt horse lt spear(just for impact combat ,when the wolfs charge in !) AND Bow, unprotected swordsmen (more for the wolf fighting than the goblin.... :)
1 B.G trolls have had them in 3 bases Classed them as elephants and hvy armoured!
1 B.G wolf packs class them as hvy chariots ( that way they only fight in 1 rank but there is lost of them so get 2 dice ?
1 B.G orc bow med foot undrilled bow av.

all in all the game played well ,played against a 100 years war english army ish :lol:

happy gaming hope this helps DaveKhan
That's a rather high-quality Orc force.

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by davekhan » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:05 pm

matthewb

Would like to hear WHY you think so ? . This is after all a on going play test at are club and we have made some changes already,
I only had 1 superior unit in the game .. when fighting heavy foot all med foot get a -1 on cohesion that helps to keep it even I think ?

have now dropped goblins down to light spear mob with 3rd rank bow undrilled and poor .. It works well .

I Think that ANY WARBAND army would have a Core of av Troops still ..... not greatly armed or drilled but still up for a fight !

Oh and lets face it most 12 base b.g POOR warbands will break due to failing cohesion tests . than auto break! and most of the time orcs will be on a - factor when fighting other troop (dwarfs elfs and humans they have better armour ect..

Look forward to your reply davekhan

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by ravenflight » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:54 pm

davekhan wrote:Hi rekila
I played a game at are local club using my orc army and this is what a put out
5 B.G Orcs Warband Undrilled med foot impact foot unarmoured ,av, swordsmen ..8-12 bases
2 B.G. Goblins undrilled med foot impact foot unarmoured Poor 12 bases each
1 B.G Orc med foot offensive spear Undrilled protected superior 8 bases
2 B.G Goblin Bow lt foot poor unprotected 8 bases
1.B.G wolfriders Lt horse lt spear(just for impact combat ,when the wolfs charge in !) AND Bow, unprotected swordsmen (more for the wolf fighting than the goblin.... :)
1 B.G trolls have had them in 3 bases Classed them as elephants and hvy armoured!
1 B.G wolf packs class them as hvy chariots ( that way they only fight in 1 rank but there is lost of them so get 2 dice ?
1 B.G orc bow med foot undrilled bow av.

all in all the game played well ,played against a 100 years war english army ish :lol:

happy gaming hope this helps DaveKhan
I would think that your trolls are too powerful. Elephants in FoG:AM were trialed with 3 bases and found to be too tough... and you've given them heavy armour as well, which inhibits their arch nemisis - the longbow.

I would think doing one or the other would make them tough (3 bases OR heavy armour) and try that first.

You can do a quick calculation by mentally putting your 75 points of trolls up against 75 points of anything else. If it's mounted it's dead... so don't even bother with them, but perhaps try various historical formations (gauls/hoplites/phalangites etc) and see how they go. If it's too one sided then increase the cost (a la Swedish brigade in FoG:R, which are +4 JUST for being a swedish brigade... So maybe your trolls are even money against 90 points of historical formations, so your trolls become +15 for being trolls (3 bases of elephants).

Have fun, let us know.

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Re: Orcs and Goblins

Post by MatthewB » Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:20 am

davekhan wrote:matthewb

Would like to hear WHY you think so ? . This is after all a on going play test at are club and we have made some changes already,
I only had 1 superior unit in the game .. when fighting heavy foot all med foot get a -1 on cohesion that helps to keep it even I think ?

have now dropped goblins down to light spear mob with 3rd rank bow undrilled and poor .. It works well .

I Think that ANY WARBAND army would have a Core of av Troops still ..... not greatly armed or drilled but still up for a fight !

Oh and lets face it most 12 base b.g POOR warbands will break due to failing cohesion tests . than auto break! and most of the time orcs will be on a - factor when fighting other troop (dwarfs elfs and humans they have better armour ect..

Look forward to your reply davekhan
As was mentioned, the Trolls being in a BG of 3 bases was one thing.

But also the fact that you have most of the Orcs being Average Quality.

Orcs are not a "Warband Army" per se, as they are not human.

I suppose that might depend upon interpretations of Orcs, but typically Tolkien describes them as being numerous and poor quality troops.

Having the Groups be 50:50 Average and Poor quality is what I would think would be more typical.

MB

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