Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

General discussion forum for anything related to Field of Glory Renaissance Wars.

Moderators: hammy, Slitherine Core, FOGR Design

shadowdragon
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Posts: 2044
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:29 pm
Location: Manotick, Ontario, Canada

Re: Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

Post by shadowdragon » Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:37 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:
shadowdragon wrote: For the Rocroi example,

After defeating the French cavalry opposite him, Isembourg, commanding the Spanish right wing cavalry, captures the French artillery. The Spanish then turn these guns on the French infantry centre, which combined with the Spanish artillery, causes some problems for the French infantry. L'Hopital commanding the French infantry centre, re-captures some guns only to lose them again to some Italian infantry in the Spanish army. The guns are recaptured again when the Duc d'Enghien (Conde) rides around the Spanish army to attack them in the rear. With the guns back in their possession the Duc d'Enghien uses them to bombard the old Spanish tercios.
More detail in there than I recall offhand for the battle (a while since I looked closely at it) - which source does it come from?
A secondary source - an article by Capt Cyril Falls. Alas, the article is 50 years old and I can't find the primary sources.

In game terms I would take the action to be:
1) The Spanish cavalry capture the French guns
2) An Italian (?) tercio is brought up to crew the guns and turn them on the French infantry
3) The French infantry attack the Italian infantry in a struggle for the guns
4) Enghien's cavalry attack the rear of the Italians and defeat them.
5) The French re-capture the guns to use against the Spanish tercois

That could be consistent with the very brief account on this web page, which I include because it does provide a bibliography:

http://www.oocities.org/aow1617/Rocroi.html

rbodleyscott
Field of Glory 2
Field of Glory 2
Posts: 22231
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:25 pm

Re: Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

Post by rbodleyscott » Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:55 pm

Could this be dealt with satisfactorily by an additional bullet in the Interpenetrations section:
- Any troops can pass through uncontrolled artillery perpendicularly from back to front or front to back only.
?

Note that the restriction on direction is to prevent long distance teleportation (as it is in the normal foot interpenetrating artillery rule).

Three
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Sergeant - 7.5 cm FK 16 nA
Posts: 216
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:30 pm

Re: Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

Post by Three » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:26 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:Could this be dealt with satisfactorily by an additional bullet in the Interpenetrations section:
- Any troops can pass through uncontrolled artillery perpendicularly from back to front or front to back only.
?

Note that the restriction on direction is to prevent long distance teleportation (as it is in the normal foot interpenetrating artillery rule).
Yes, this point is the only part of the rules that I have any real issue with (despite my prolonged moaning about the price of Winged Hussars :P ), and this would solve my issues with it.

nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10265
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Re: Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

Post by nikgaukroger » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:58 pm

shadowdragon wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:
shadowdragon wrote: For the Rocroi example,

After defeating the French cavalry opposite him, Isembourg, commanding the Spanish right wing cavalry, captures the French artillery. The Spanish then turn these guns on the French infantry centre, which combined with the Spanish artillery, causes some problems for the French infantry. L'Hopital commanding the French infantry centre, re-captures some guns only to lose them again to some Italian infantry in the Spanish army. The guns are recaptured again when the Duc d'Enghien (Conde) rides around the Spanish army to attack them in the rear. With the guns back in their possession the Duc d'Enghien uses them to bombard the old Spanish tercios.
More detail in there than I recall offhand for the battle (a while since I looked closely at it) - which source does it come from?
A secondary source - an article by Capt Cyril Falls. Alas, the article is 50 years old and I can't find the primary sources.

In game terms I would take the action to be:
1) The Spanish cavalry capture the French guns
2) An Italian (?) tercio is brought up to crew the guns and turn them on the French infantry
3) The French infantry attack the Italian infantry in a struggle for the guns
4) Enghien's cavalry attack the rear of the Italians and defeat them.
5) The French re-capture the guns to use against the Spanish tercois

That could be consistent with the very brief account on this web page, which I include because it does provide a bibliography:

http://www.oocities.org/aow1617/Rocroi.html
IIRC the chap who did that article you link to did an expanded one for The Arquebusier a couple of years ago - and I'm sure that made no mention of the Spanish turning the over-run French guns on the French infantry. Now that doesn't mean it didn't happen, however, I can't help but feel that its absence in such an article suggests that the author (at least) didn't find it amongst his sources.

I am more and more coming to think that re-use of guns that were over-run by enemy cavalry may not be worth the effort of representing - too infrequent (fewer examples than captured artillery being used against their former owners I think - but feel free to correct me on that).
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk

Sarmaticus
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 4:31 pm

Re: Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

Post by Sarmaticus » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:45 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:Could this be dealt with satisfactorily by an additional bullet in the Interpenetrations section:
- Any troops can pass through uncontrolled artillery perpendicularly from back to front or front to back only.
?

Note that the restriction on direction is to prevent long distance teleportation (as it is in the normal foot interpenetrating artillery rule).
Good. Reads simply and looks easy to apply.

petedalby
Major-General - Jagdtiger
Major-General - Jagdtiger
Posts: 2998
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:23 pm
Location: Fareham, UK

Re: Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

Post by petedalby » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:51 pm

Works for me - (and v similar to my post of the 4th October....)

I also liked t'other Richard's suggestion of a minus on the POA if artillery fire on mounted in the flank sector at long range. That might encourage more historic artillery deployment.

If you could also outlaw artillery firing through their own LF that would be job done for me.
Pete

shadowdragon
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Posts: 2044
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:29 pm
Location: Manotick, Ontario, Canada

Re: Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

Post by shadowdragon » Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:54 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:IIRC the chap who did that article you link to did an expanded one for The Arquebusier a couple of years ago - and I'm sure that made no mention of the Spanish turning the over-run French guns on the French infantry. Now that doesn't mean it didn't happen, however, I can't help but feel that its absence in such an article suggests that the author (at least) didn't find it amongst his sources.

I am more and more coming to think that re-use of guns that were over-run by enemy cavalry may not be worth the effort of representing - too infrequent (fewer examples than captured artillery being used against their former owners I think - but feel free to correct me on that).
More than likely it's the inability of the French to hit back at the Spanish once their guns are taken that has the biggest impact. More germane to our discussion than whether or not the Spanish turned the French guns on the French infantry for any significant effect was that eventually the French re-captured them and used them against the Spanish tercios in the final states of the battle. They can't do that if the guns are removed after the Spanish cavalry capture them.

I found another secondary source - an article by Simon Goodenough which mentions the same events as Cyril Falls with respect to the French artillery. [For what it's worth, the wiki article mentions d'Enghien also capturing and using the Spanish guns against the Spanish tercios....but it is wiki, there's no reference and I haven't seen the Spanish guns being used on the Spanish quoted elsewhere but some of the accounts have the Spanish guns with the tercios and still operational.]

The relevant section from Jean-Baptiste Lepine's 1860 historical account.

"Mélos, profitant avec ardeur de son avantage de ce côté, se porta sur une partie de l’infanterie, à la tête de laquelle combattait Laferté, la tailla en pièces, et prit même cet officier général percé de deux coups de pistolet et de trois coups d’épée, tua le sieur de la Barre, lieutenant d’artillerie, et prit aussi quelques pièces de canon.

"Cependant, le maréchal, qui avait rallié une partie de sa cavalerie, se soutenait vaillamment contre les ennemis, qui faisaient des efforts inouïs pour le prendre prisonnier.

"Les Espagnols, profitant du fâcheux désordre où était cette aile gauche, se servirent même de nos propres canons pour achever de la rompre."

It is possible that the re-use of guns didn't have much of an effect - perhaps more morale than material, but it is mentioned often enough. So, I prefer Richard's solution. Uncontrolled guns can be interpenetrated by any unit - front to back or back to front.

shadowdragon
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Brigadier-General - Elite Grenadier
Posts: 2044
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:29 pm
Location: Manotick, Ontario, Canada

Re: Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

Post by shadowdragon » Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:13 pm

I'm happy enough with the POA for artillery vs mounted "as is", but I was wondering if the "artillery vs mounted" problem is all artillery or just medium artillery. It seems to me that medium artillery are good value vs light or heavy artillery. They have a reasonably good long range at 24 MU (vs 8 for light artillery and 36 for heavy) and can pivot without a CMT (same as light artillery).

kevinj
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

Post by kevinj » Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:32 pm

Any troops can pass through uncontrolled artillery perpendicularly from back to front or front to back only.
There also needs to be a mechanism to allow them to be recaptured. We tend to fudge it by a charge, but that's not really right as they are not an enemy BG.

TamsinP
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:08 pm

Re: Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

Post by TamsinP » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:53 pm

Another example - Breitenfeld 1631. The Swedish cavalry captured Tilly's guns and they were then crewed and used against the tercios.

nigelemsen
Major - Jagdpanther
Major - Jagdpanther
Posts: 1065
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:54 pm
Location: Alderholt, Near Ringwood, Dorset, UK
Contact:

Re: Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

Post by nigelemsen » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:43 am

My preference is keep it simple for playability... What works for me as possible solutions:

Any troops allowed to pass through front/back, back/front including charging.
For large units like Kiel's/tercios. Pass completely through on a complex test (counter to distance gain) charging is a simple move. Otherwise remain in base contact counting front edge as per artillery edge.
Proelium: Wargaming rules for 3000B.C. - 1901A.D.
Hordes of Models and Buckets of Dice
Web: www.quickplayrules.com
Social: www.facebook.com/quickplayrules
Twitter: @quickplayrules

petedalby
Major-General - Jagdtiger
Major-General - Jagdtiger
Posts: 2998
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:23 pm
Location: Fareham, UK

Re: Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

Post by petedalby » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:51 am

Are there any historic examples of charging through one's own guns? I am concerned that could be exploited in as yet un-imagined ways.
Pete

nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10265
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Re: Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

Post by nikgaukroger » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:46 am

I don't think allowing chargers to interpenetrate is a change on either mine or Richard's agenda - opens up a whole Can o'Worms (tm).

For those concerned on the artillery/mounted issue it currently seems that Richard's suggestion is the most likely one to be adopted IMO. So if that will throw up an undesirable consequences speak now ...
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk

kevinj
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

Post by kevinj » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:09 pm

I don't think allowing chargers to interpenetrate is a change on either mine or Richard's agenda - opens up a whole Can o'Worms (tm).
Agreed.

vexillia

Re: Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

Post by vexillia » Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:50 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:For those concerned on the artillery/mounted issue it currently seems that Richard's suggestion is the most likely one to be adopted IMO. So if that will throw up an undesirable consequences speak now ...
Which Richard and is there a link to it?

pyruse
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
Posts: 301
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:32 am

Re: Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

Post by pyruse » Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:24 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:Could this be dealt with satisfactorily by an additional bullet in the Interpenetrations section:
- Any troops can pass through uncontrolled artillery perpendicularly from back to front or front to back only.
?

Note that the restriction on direction is to prevent long distance teleportation (as it is in the normal foot interpenetrating artillery rule).

MatteoPasi
Colonel - Ju 88A
Colonel - Ju 88A
Posts: 1534
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:17 pm
Location: Faenza - Italia

Re: Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

Post by MatteoPasi » Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:04 pm

I'd like this one (even simpler):
uncontrolled artillery is considered like uneven terrain and no as a BG anymore, troops can pass over and even stand it (defending it fron enemy)

kevinj
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:21 am
Location: Derbyshire, UK

Re: Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

Post by kevinj » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:43 am

Are we anywhere nearer to a solution for this yet? Issues occurred with it in at least 2 games at Warfare last weekend. Those were just the ones I had to rule on, there may have been other games where it arose and the players resolved it themselves.

nikgaukroger
Field of Glory Moderator
Field of Glory Moderator
Posts: 10265
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
Location: LarryWorld

Re: Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:50 am

kevinj wrote:Are we anywhere nearer to a solution for this yet? Issues occurred with it in at least 2 games at Warfare last weekend. Those were just the ones I had to rule on, there may have been other games where it arose and the players resolved it themselves.
All down to getting Richard to do a new set of errata as I think there is a solution he is happy with - its just rather difficult to prise him away from his computer game at present ... :evil:
Nik Gaukroger

"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk

Sarmaticus
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 4:31 pm

Re: Impassibility of captured artillery to mounted

Post by Sarmaticus » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:58 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:
petedalby wrote: And Artillery firing over LF is another problem IMO. Personally I'd prefer to see no overhead firing at all unless from a hill. It didn't really come in until the Napoleonic period or beyond.
I'm trying to recall why we had this in the rules and am currently failing ...
Resurrecting this but could it have been Luetzen where the Imperialist's shot line the ditches of a road running along their front?

Post Reply

Return to “Field of Glory : Renaissance Wars : General Discussion”