Scotland referendum

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MDH
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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by MDH » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:08 pm

nigelemsen wrote:On a wargamers slant.... this must have seem much simpler in 1745.... And the aftermath not the best entry in the history of the british army...

oh.. money to be made... who has got the contract to remake all those Union Jacks?
Yeah get into flags. There's Australia New Zealand and Hawiii all of whom use it as part of theirs. Myself I would go for minimalist changes- improve the design stuff: this is a great brandmark so it would be a crying shame to ditch it only to let some marketing corporation or Disney snaffle the copywrite.

So thin the white trim round the red diagonals and make them symmetrical ( for those who have never looked close they are not :roll: ) . Not the Saltire anymore :wink: . Easier to draw ( and for us wargamers to paint!) and then there's no problem about which way up is the right way :P . What's not to like?

Red white and blue are used by loads of countries so the palate stays. And anyway post "Yes" its OUR flag and we can have flying pigs on a canary yellow background if we want- and we can call ourselves what we like too - Narnia ? Middle Earth ? Atlantis - no let's be boring and still use UK and keep costs and confusion down!

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by bagpuss1966 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:07 pm

I think it will go ..Yes .. lol




Theres too Many Neds /Bams who think it will be plain sailing ...and once your OUT..!

marshalney2000
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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by marshalney2000 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:42 pm

I think calling Cameron, Clegg and Milliband neds is a bit extreme.
Interesting comment from the BBC's political reporter tonight that 4 % of the U K population will completely alter the landscape of Britain for the other. 96% forever regardless of whether a yes or no vote.
Strangely there is a significant benefit to the Conservatives if the vote is Yes as they will almost certainly be guaranteed to win the next UK election as the opposition will lose over 50 seats in Scotland while the conservatives only have one seat North of the border to lose.
John

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by petedalby » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:21 pm

Strangely there is a significant benefit to the Conservatives if the vote is Yes as they will almost certainly be guaranteed to win the next UK election as the opposition will lose over 50 seats in Scotland while the conservatives only have one seat North of the border to lose.
Surprised that more hasn't been made of this. Otherwise why else let Alistair Darling be the front man - no surprises if there's a 'Yes' vote with him running the 'No' campaign.

I'm still hoping the pollsters have got it wrong and there's a big swing towards 'No' on the morrow. But if it's a 'Yes' maybe we could all be winners?

Just hope everyone plays nice whatever the result.
Pete

marshalney2000
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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by marshalney2000 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:56 pm

The general view in Scotland and I believe Westminster is that Alasdair Darling has made a right pigs ear of the Better Together Campaign and that is why Gordon Brown has been to the fore over the last few weeks. Good scapegoat too if it goes tits up.
Masterful speech by Alex Salmon tonight in my home town of Perth which seemed to hit all the right notes and very statesman like as well.
I think no may sneak it but the the Yes campaign appears to be far superior on the ground and may get their support out far better. The big unknown is the new voters who, other than the youngsters, are mainly the disenfranchised who have a real reason to protest against the status quo.
John

MDH
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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by MDH » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:43 pm

petedalby wrote:
Strangely there is a significant benefit to the Conservatives if the vote is Yes as they will almost certainly be guaranteed to win the next UK election as the opposition will lose over 50 seats in Scotland while the conservatives only have one seat North of the border to lose.
Surprised that more hasn't been made of this. Otherwise why else let Alistair Darling be the front man - no surprises if there's a 'Yes' vote with him running the 'No' campaign.

I'm still hoping the pollsters have got it wrong and there's a big swing towards 'No' on the morrow. But if it's a 'Yes' maybe we could all be winners?

Just hope everyone plays nice whatever the result.
Well the polls open at 7am and I for one, as a good if ageing democrat, am content to leave it to the good folks in Scotland to make up their own minds and to respect their decision even if it hurts a bit . But any winning on both sides will be well downstream I fear.

If "Yes" it'll be a hard road for them getting there ,maybe harder than they think, and not many nations seem to have expressed much interest in being overly helpful , not least rUK. That may change but talk of " bullying" will not help. As many have observed there are no votes outside Scotland to be won over by such complaints. rUK's stance is pretty inevitable ,at least for a time I think, given all that has been said by both sides about each other and the mutual distrust among the politicos. And they do represent the rest of us - the old democracy thing...

And our UK electoral cycle and system will be a nightmare for getting anything agreed by March 2016 let alone actually implemented - we may end up with two general elections in less than 12 months in rUK." Sorry Alex we are a tad busy just working out who is in charge here - can we get back to you? Say June 2016? We can do Tuesdays."

But if independence came as quickly easily and simply as a cross on a ballot paper it might be valued less. Compared to India a and Zimbabwe this will still be a breeze.

"Small political earthquake in the British isles nobody killed" Surely we can all live with that without getting too steamed up?

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by ravenflight » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:51 pm

Good luck Scotland. My thoughts are with you no matter which way it goes.

Not long now.

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by carlisimo » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:17 pm

I wish you all luck. I can’t help but be interested in it because of my background – Spanish (Valencian) on one side, Taiwanese on the other.

Valencia speaks a dialect of Catalan and some Valencians would have us join Catalunya in its push for independence, but it’s a minority. I’m not in that group but I can understand it. Languages other than Spanish (Castillian) have a lower status in Spain, legally and in daily conversation if you’re outside of those regions, and that leads to frustration and resentment. That’s one issue that Scotland doesn’t have to the same degree, but I’ve heard Scots complain about comments they get from English people. It seems bizarre to me that a lot of those comments involve trying to use Scottish money that should be perfectly legal in England.

Taiwan’s situation is more different so I won’t talk too much about it. I will say that comments from the other, politically more powerful sides (there are basically three sides – the PRC, ROC, and pro-independence Taiwanese) tend to be of a nature that leads to spite rather than endearment. Attitude is a big deal. It’s probably more important than economic questions, including for Scottish voters. Especially because it’s so hard to say which way economic matters will go.

But it sounds like politics will be significant too, given that Scotland current leans strongly in a different direction from England. Is there reason to believe that it’ll always be like that, or does it look like a short-term thing?

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by grahambriggs » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:41 am

marshalney2000 wrote:Strangely there is a significant benefit to the Conservatives if the vote is Yes as they will almost certainly be guaranteed to win the next UK election as the opposition will lose over 50 seats in Scotland while the conservatives only have one seat North of the border to lose.
John
Actually no. The next UK general election in 2015 and any Yes vote today would trigger a process that leads to independence in 2016. Hence, the prospect is of a normal UK general election next year, but with a lot of the consituencies disappearing in 2016. So if, say, labour gets a majority in 2015, they may lose it in 2016.

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by nigelemsen » Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:26 am

So if, say, labour gets a majority in 2015, they may lose it in 2016.
Dream situation :)

may be that's why my armies often have blue palette to the painting scheme.. wOw
Last edited by nigelemsen on Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by Three » Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:29 am

Labour won an outright majority of seats in England in 1997, 2001 and 2005. Scots seats have only altered the result for a majority in 2 ( or maybe 3 or 4, depending on which sources you check :roll: pro Yes say 2, pro No say 4) elections since the war, It's nearly always the case that a Labour majority is a result of Labour winning a majority of English constituencies and not relying on their Scottish or Welsh traditional constituencies.

There is an argument that Scottish results prevented an outright majority for the Conservatives in 2010, but that's countered by the fact that Scottish Liberal seats allowed the Coalition, so the jury is still out on that one :twisted:

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by QQQwerty » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:24 pm

I'm Canadian and we had our own separation scare back in 1995. At that time, it was our province of Quebec that wanted sovereignty. The referendum took place in Quebec on October 30, 1995. The referendum itself was quite confusing as it didn't spell out how Quebec sovereignty would work with the rest of Canada. Anyway, it was a close one with 49.42% voting "Yes" for separation and 50.58% voting "No" for separation.
Since then, enthusiasm for sovereignty slowly dwindled. Just last April, the separatist provincial government was thoroughly trounced in the last election. Even their leader was not able to win a seat.
I'm sure the Quebec separatists are keenly watching this Scottish referendum. Let's hope Scotland stays in the Union.

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by johngl » Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:10 pm

Three wrote:Labour won an outright majority of seats in England in 1997, 2001 and 2005. Scots seats have only altered the result for a majority in 2 ( or maybe 3 or 4, depending on which sources you check :roll: pro Yes say 2, pro No say 4) elections since the war, It's nearly always the case that a Labour majority is a result of Labour winning a majority of English constituencies and not relying on their Scottish or Welsh traditional constituencies.

There is an argument that Scottish results prevented an outright majority for the Conservatives in 2010, but that's countered by the fact that Scottish Liberal seats allowed the Coalition, so the jury is still out on that one :twisted:
The Conservatives won overall majorities in England in 1950, 1964 and February 1974, but the Government was Labour each time because of Scottish and Welsh votes. We English put up with that as part of the price for the Union.

Hoping for a "No" vote today, largely on sentimental grounds: the Scots Greys at Waterloo, the Highlanders at Balaclava, the pipes at Lucknow...

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by marshalney2000 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:32 pm

Well if a no then we Scots look forward to receiving all the extra benefits that all the three parties have promised us at English and Welsh tax payers expense. We already have a higher benefit per head than South of the border but we are happy to increase the benefit even more. On the other hand if yes then we will be the 14th richest country in the world. Seems a bit of a win win situation.
John

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by Ulysisgrunt » Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:13 pm

Petigru: "South Carolina is too small for a republic and too large for an insane asylum"

Would this apply to Scotland??

Confused and apprehensive in California......
Danny Weitz
What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by nigelemsen » Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:25 pm

Well, what is certain regardless of the final result..

We all will be waking up tomorrow to different world...
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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by MDH » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:10 pm

Ulysisgrunt wrote:Petigru: "South Carolina is too small for a republic and too large for an insane asylum"

Would this apply to Scotland??

Confused and apprehensive in California......
Danny Weitz
Though not a resident of Scotland I have never been doubtful it COULD be an independent country ( so neither of Petigru's amusing alternatives :lol: ).It is big enough with enough resources skills potential etc . How successful it will be - well come back in 100 years is my view . Those kinds of questions are for history .

What folk are voting to today is whether it SHOULD be ie "is that what they want? " Enough has been said on either side over two years about the benefits or otherwise (credible or otherwise. ) to give anyone a headache on the "could?" bit but little of that helps with the " should" bit. :roll:

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by acarhj » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:56 pm

Well? It's about 7:00PM over there. What's the answer? Does it look like the Scots are staying or going?

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by Jekky » Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:07 pm

The polls don't close until 10pm, and the results will not be known until tomorrow morning.

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Re: Scotland referendum

Post by carlisimo » Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:12 pm

acarhj wrote:Well? It's about 7:00PM over there. What's the answer? Does it look like the Scots are staying or going?
The news can't even tell us (by law) what their informal polling says until polls close at 10pm.

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