Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

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What do you think is better: the Bf 109K or the Fw 190A?

Messerschmitt Bf 109K
2
8%
Focke-Wulf Fw 190A
24
92%
 
Total votes: 26

BiteNibbleChomp
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Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:33 am

Post your opinions on what you think is better: the Bf109K or the Focke-Wulf?

I personally like the K because it's cheaper to upgrade from (and the Me 262 comes not long after the FW so why pay 500pp and then pay another 700 in a few scenarios)

- BNC
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ThvN
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Re: Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

Post by ThvN » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:42 pm

BiteNibbleChomp wrote:Post your opinions on what you think is better: the Bf109K or the Focke-Wulf?

I personally like the K because it's cheaper to upgrade from (and the Me 262 comes not long after the FW so why pay 500pp and then pay another 700 in a few scenarios)

- BNC
For me it depends on the situation, you make a good argument that upgrading earlier Messerschmitts into F-W's doesn't make much sense in the main campaign. Although the F-W becomes available on 10 October 1942 and the Bf109K much later, 1 March 1944. So in the Grand Campaign this decision will be much more difficult, especially as a lot of people don't like the Bf109G model.

When buying new, the F-W gets my vote but not just because it has higher attack stats, I'm mostly interested in the much higher fuel stat. The F-W is a very good escort fighter, and the Bf109K is good to help tackle troublesome fighters (its high Ini helps a lot here).

But the F-W has another big disadvantage if you consider the upgrade families: the F-W has a very poor upgrade, I don't like the D-9 and the Ta 152H is out of family and its late availability make it useful. And I've tried a lot of things, even the Me 163 (next to useless, just like it should).

captainjack
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Re: Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

Post by captainjack » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:42 pm

I usually convert to the FW190 as soon as possible. While this is partly for the improved combat performance the long range and the 8 ammo are also important factors.

I sometimes keep one or two 109s for escort work and for dealing with unescorted bombers in Afrika Korps where prestige is often short but in the campaigns I can't see that waiting for Me262s would work. However, I switched off the soft cap as soon as I found out how (thanks ThvN) so I have more prestige available than many other players would.

proline
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Re: Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

Post by proline » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:41 pm

I'm traveling with my phone and don't have all the numbers handy, but the 190 is significantly better than the 109K in most respects. In the GC, you really can't do without it for two years until the 262 comes out. You'll take less damage to your fighters with the 190, which is expensive to repair. You'll also kill off the Russian bombers faster and so take less damage to your tanks, which is also costly. And you might find you can get by with one or two less of them, which frees up precious supply spots. I'm pretty sure using the 190 pays for itself over the course of the huge amount of time you'll be using them.

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Re: Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

Post by ThorHa » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:57 pm

With soft cap the 109 K is more than viable. I switched my stance on air completely during my recently finished 44 East dlc - AA instead of respectively complementing fighters. If executed correctly even the 109 G is still valuable in 44, especially with 4 stars or more. Key is to attack bombers with Fw 190, fighters with 109K and significantly weakened enemy air with 109 G. Consecutively my (complete, not the emplöyed) fighter air in 44 still consists of 2 109 G, 2 109K and only 3 FW 190 - every bit helps with soft cap established.

I have now some dozen examples where an enemy fighter or bomber was fully annihilated flying into the defensive fire of a Sd Kfz 7/1 with 3 or more stars and the correspinding overstrength. I rather leave a fighter at home than an AA - apart from their original rule if backed by arty they make georgeous infantry baits.

And while fighters DO take significant losses especially against the Yak 3 (which was an excellent fighter in RL, on par with the P 51 D Mustang), AA does not. It is a real joy if a 7/1 takes 6 strength points out of a Yak 3 without retaliation.

PC IS different from PG. Some tactics from PG simply don´t work in the late war DLCs - big air is one of these. Difference stems from the way initiative works, which in PG was an all or nothing - if you won the initiative roll any enemy air unit was toast in first shot. Second reason is the number of mobile Soviet AA - fantysy, but a dangerous fantasy :-).

Regards,
Thorsten

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Re: Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:30 am

proline wrote:I'm traveling with my phone and don't have all the numbers handy, but the 190 is significantly better than the 109K in most respects.
109K: 16 air attack, ~540pp
190A: 20 air attack, ~600pp, -2 initiative compared to the K.

If initiative counts as 20% bonus per 1 ini, then the 109K comes out at 22.4, but this difference seems to expand the more experienced both get.

- BNC
Creator of American Civil War mod for Strategic Command WWI!
Discuss here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4504986
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Re: Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:47 am

I just had the thought that we should put a poll at the top of this thread. Is someone able to do that?

- BNC
Creator of American Civil War mod for Strategic Command WWI!
Discuss here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4504986
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proline
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Re: Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

Post by proline » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:07 am

BiteNibbleChomp wrote:
proline wrote:I'm traveling with my phone and don't have all the numbers handy, but the 190 is significantly better than the 109K in most respects.
109K: 16 air attack, ~540pp
190A: 20 air attack, ~600pp, -2 initiative compared to the K.

If initiative counts as 20% bonus per 1 ini, then the 109K comes out at 22.4, but this difference seems to expand the more experienced both get.

- BNC
Thanks for posting the numbers. I do believe that the 190 also has better defense, which partially compensates for the lower initiative, is faster, has more fuel, has more ammo, and possibly has better ground attack/defense. Seems like more than enough to be worth the money.

As far as the comments about prestige cap go, the problem is that the cap only really kicks in once the Tigers come out, but the 190 comes out a year before that. The cap overall doesn't much matter in the east because you can save up all you need by 1942.

I personally don't use ground based AA because they are extremely frustratingly ineffective at low experience levels, are less mobile than fighters, and often require a lot of fighter support to prevent damaged aircraft from escaping. Plus the are useless on turns when there are no enemy fighters! I should try using them more though.

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Re: Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:39 am

109K has 5 ammo, 190A has 8
fuel is 56/86.

Ground attack is far more related to experience than anything else, defense and movement are roughly equal as well.

However the K has the big advantage of a very cheap upgrade from an older Bf109, whereas the Fw has to pay full price.

Also, Tigers come out not long after the Fw190, so the soft cap is an important part of the game at this point (a 460pp Bf109G is going to reduce the cap by as much as 33% compared to using 580pp Fw's).

Finally, Even though I usually use the K in the early-'44 battles (until the Me262 comes out), purchasing a couple of Fw190s in '43 and using them alongside the Ks while spending little on reinforcements (leaving them with <1*) does work quite well against anything up to and including a Spitfire IX.

- BNC
Creator of American Civil War mod for Strategic Command WWI!
Discuss here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4504986
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ThvN
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Re: Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

Post by ThvN » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:47 am

BiteNibbleChomp wrote:I just had the thought that we should put a poll at the top of this thread. Is someone able to do that?

- BNC
I think you can do it by editing your first post, than at the bottom select the 'Poll creation' , and see if that works. I'm not 100% sure it will work, this depends on forum settings. Just let me know if you have trouble.

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Re: Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:19 pm

ThvN wrote:
BiteNibbleChomp wrote:I just had the thought that we should put a poll at the top of this thread. Is someone able to do that?

- BNC
I think you can do it by editing your first post, than at the bottom select the 'Poll creation' , and see if that works. I'm not 100% sure it will work, this depends on forum settings. Just let me know if you have trouble.
I don't get the option. I think only mods and admins will have it.

- BNC
Creator of American Civil War mod for Strategic Command WWI!
Discuss here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4504986
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Re: Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

Post by ThvN » Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:27 pm

BiteNibbleChomp wrote:
ThvN wrote:
BiteNibbleChomp wrote:I just had the thought that we should put a poll at the top of this thread. Is someone able to do that?

- BNC
I think you can do it by editing your first post, than at the bottom select the 'Poll creation' , and see if that works. I'm not 100% sure it will work, this depends on forum settings. Just let me know if you have trouble.
I don't get the option. I think only mods and admins will have it.

- BNC
Voting season is open! :)

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Re: Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:57 pm

ThvN wrote:Voting season is open! :)
:) Indeed!

- BNC
Creator of American Civil War mod for Strategic Command WWI!
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Re: Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:22 pm

proline wrote: As far as the comments about prestige cap go, the problem is that the cap only really kicks in once the Tigers come out, but the 190 comes out a year before that. The cap overall doesn't much matter in the east because you can save up all you need by 1942.
Tigers are unlocked on 26.12.1942, Fw190s are Oct. '42

Also, the GC isn't the only campaign we are talking about -> the cap will make a large effect in Wehrmacht and AK, where you don't have any more than 20k (ever... the most I've ever had in America is about 14k)

- BNC
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Re: Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

Post by captainjack » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:17 am

Thor Ha's description of using a mixed fighter force is a reminder that there's no one fixed formula (which is one of the best things about Panzer Corps).

AA's also have an important role - yesterday my 3* 12.8 AA took out a 10 strength superfortress in a single shot of defensive fire in the mid west US (on dice chess, not full random, but I think he's just got a +2 attack hero). He's also been doing a great job of taking 5 or 6 points off the late war P47s and Mustangs so my veteran 262s can finish them off, and the 4-range 88 is proving pretty handy for softening up targets. Even the puny 10/4 is useful for zipping around to act as a deterrent for the 4* Maus and Jagdtigers that are otherwise easy targets for everything with wings. Despite being a bit feeble, it gains experience pretty quickly because it's cheap and the low cost is a bonus when you have no spare prestige and four slots to fill.

Incidentally, I've definitely had soft cap issues in mid 1941 with 11 or 12 strength units and I suspect it was working in late 40 so you don't have to wait until Tigers become available.
Last edited by captainjack on Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

BiteNibbleChomp
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Re: Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:20 am

captainjack wrote:Thor Ha's description of using a mixed fighter force is a reminder that there's no one fixed formula (which is one of the best things about Panzer Corps).
That feature is what makes these discussions so interesting. Also, have you voted yet?

- BNC
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Re: Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

Post by captainjack » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:27 am

Just voted - the vote button wasn't working earlier.

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Re: Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:32 am

captainjack wrote:Just voted - the vote button wasn't working earlier.
I do believe that you voted incorrectly. Do I need to bomb your U-Boat with a Bf109K to explain the correct way to vote? :lol:

At some point I should do a test where both sides fight each other and see who wins the most combats.

- BNC
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captainjack
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Re: Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

Post by captainjack » Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:55 am

BiteNibbleChomp wrote:Do I need to bomb your U-Boat with a Bf109K to explain the correct way to vote?
Dear Mr Battleship, unless you have been modding a bit too freely, I do believe my U Boat won't even have to evade your Bf109K....

But wait, is that a periscope approaching your battleship?

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Re: Bf 109K vs Fw 190A

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:09 am

captainjack wrote:
BiteNibbleChomp wrote:Do I need to bomb your U-Boat with a Bf109K to explain the correct way to vote?
Dear Mr Battleship, unless you have been modding a bit too freely, I do believe my U Boat won't even have to evade your Bf109K....

But wait, is that a periscope approaching your battleship?
My Battleship is an H44. Specially designed to survive any torpedo attacks 8)

And the Bf109K that I am using is my 4.5* one from AK, enough to maul most things it encounters. In addition, Attack +2, Ini +1 and a spotting hero.

- BNC
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Discuss here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4504986
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