AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

After action reports for Commander Europe at War.

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supermax
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Re: AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

Post by supermax » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:17 am

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supermax
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Re: AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

Post by supermax » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:19 am

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duncanr
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Re: AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

Post by duncanr » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:56 am

its basically a roll up operation for the Allies as you have lost effective air capability

but I think its probably just to much distance for the Allies to cover in the time left

supermax
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Re: AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

Post by supermax » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:06 pm

duncanr wrote:its basically a roll up operation for the Allies as you have lost effective air capability

but I think its probably just to much distance for the Allies to cover in the time left
yes you are right.

Whats interesting here is that i heavily invested in air, had 14 German FTR, and have been diligently replacing lost airsteps for every turn until all went sideways in early 44.

Its really hard to keep airpower with the germans as there is too much depletion and too many angles to cover.

I am not sure the germans have a go in 4.0. Also wondering what happened to the Volskturm reinforcement when allies enter germany. I have Allied paras on the ground in Germany but no reinforcement.

We'll see about what the allies ahve to cover in terms of ground.

Carlos_Danger
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Re: AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

Post by Carlos_Danger » Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:30 pm

Para's do not count for home guard activation, it has to be a regular land unit.

Forget the Russians, just keep retreating. I would worry about that invasion in Northern Germany. Remember the English are extra dangerous this game because they still get the Russian convoy.

At this point in the game, It is kind of cheesy that Vokt basically get's to decide where he wants the Russian Convoy to go and he has decided that he wants it to go to England, so worry about the English!

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Re: AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

Post by Carlos_Danger » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:26 pm

I am no expert, but I think you have to hold on to the Luftwaffe as long as you can.

You were to aggressive and blew through the Luftwaffe to fast. Probably it wasn't necessary to bomb the transports in France, or protect the beaches in Denmark with the Luftwaffe? Sending all land units to make a double defensive line on the landing zones maybe to aggressive also?

I could not see how you could lose this game up to this point, But you could be in trouble now?
Hope you hang on for a minor victory!

supermax
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Re: AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

Post by supermax » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:29 pm

Carlos_Danger wrote:I am no expert, but I think you have to hold on to the Luftwaffe as long as you can.

You were to aggressive and blew through the Luftwaffe to fast. Probably it wasn't necessary to bomb the transports in France, or protect the beaches in Denmark with the Luftwaffe? Sending all land units to make a double defensive line on the landing zones maybe to aggressive also?

I could not see how you could lose this game up to this point, But you could be in trouble now?
Hope you hang on for a minor victory!
Agressive in offense / agressive in defense :)

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Re: AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

Post by duncanr » Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:30 pm

I think supermax has done very well with maybe one error in choice, that being "heavy" with the Kreigsmarine, that burnt a bit of oil and chewed up some PP's and maybe some research, otherwise I think, as has been noted, its withdrawal (well run) in east and counter attack in the west

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Re: AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

Post by Cybvep » Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:19 pm

1-2 pages ago most of the folks here basically said that Supermax's victory was certain. Now they are not so sure anymore. I said it before and I will repeat it now: the game is not over yet. CEAW is not a game that ends in 1943 or 1944. Before making final comments, I think that we should wait for the game's conclusion.

And wow, look at Supermax's oil. I thought that he would have no oil problems in this game, but it seems that the Luftwaffe was an oil sink. BTW conquering Yugoslavia gives extra war effort for Romanian hexes, which means more oil in the long run. That's why I think that usually it's quite beneficial to conquer Yugoslavia.

I'm wondering whether the Allies have PP problems because of invasion capacity, because they made many landings in the Med and in Europe.

ATM my main concern is that Supermax doesn't have troops in all those juicy fortress/fortified hexes. He will need the entrenchment bonus.

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Re: AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

Post by Morris » Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:17 am

Different driver would drive the same car to different destination when they choose different direction ...... It just depends on their different driving style ! :)

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Re: AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:16 am

Cybvep wrote:1-2 pages ago most of the folks here basically said that Supermax's victory was certain. Now they are not so sure anymore. I said it before and I will repeat it now: the game is not over yet. CEAW is not a game that ends in 1943 or 1944. Before making final comments, I think that we should wait for the game's conclusion.

And wow, look at Supermax's oil. I thought that he would have no oil problems in this game, but it seems that the Luftwaffe was an oil sink. BTW conquering Yugoslavia gives extra war effort for Romanian hexes, which means more oil in the long run. That's why I think that usually it's quite beneficial to conquer Yugoslavia.

I'm wondering whether the Allies have PP problems because of invasion capacity, because they made many landings in the Med and in Europe.

ATM my main concern is that Supermax doesn't have troops in all those juicy fortress/fortified hexes. He will need the entrenchment bonus.
I believe that Supermax still has the best chance to win. The main reason is that the Allies are behind schedule in Italy and partly also France. Supermax went for a lot of high tech air units and had his fun with them. However, the price was that his oil reserves dropped fast.

I believe the war will be decided in Russia. Supermax has to buy himself some turns by retreating and he still has some room to retreat before it's critical. Strange to say so, but the bad weather will actually be Supermax'es friend and not Vokt's. The Russian steamroller is really nasty in fair weather.

I agree that Supermax needs to build units to man the good defensive fortified hexes in Germany. He has a problem that he needs to replace losses in Russia to avoid the collapse of the front line there. Therefore the end result is not a given. Vokt can still turn this around with good offensive play.

Supermax probably needs his valuable oil for offensive land units and not the Luftwaffe airstrikes. At least when it's obvious that Overlord can't be stopped anymore. It's not easy finding the right balance between the different fronts. It's burning in Russia, but it Supermax transfers strength from the Med or west then these areas will be burning too. Italy might be the key for Axis victory in this game. So holding on to Sicily for as long as possible is probably a good idea. Vokt should maybe look for landings in mainland Italy instead. He could sail into the Adriatic sea and make combined landings to cut off the south of Italy from rail movement. However, the amphs are needed in France too. So Vokt can't just do everything possible.

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Re: AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:18 am

I'm not sure about Brest Litovsk having Russian rail gauge or not. Losing that city and not having cleared the Pripet swamps means that Vokt might be able to rail Russian units to Brest Litovsk. That would cripple the German defense line. So my main priority would have been to retake Brest Litovsk. Now it's in connection with the main Russian front line.

I have a feeling that not clearing partisans and garrisoning all rear cities can become the decisive factor in this game. I lost to Joerock because some hexes in the Pripet marshes weren't converted into German control and some partisans were present there. When he broke through the Dnepr line these Soviet controlled hexes combined with the partisans managed to cut-off supply for 5-6 of my units. They were able to regain supply, but couldn't move fast on that turn. So they were gobbled up by Joerock's Russians. That created a hole in my line and enabled him to take Berlin and Hamburg in April 1945.

So not having Russian controlled hexes within the Axis area can have a big impact. So maybe Supermax should use some units to actually regain quite a few of these hexes and deal with the pesky partisans.

Partisan warfare is rather tricky. If you garrison every city and run after every partisan then you keep them under control. If you feel these units could be used at the front line to gain more momentum then you take the risk. I've seen that a controllable partisan situation can get out of control within a turn or two. Just a lucky Allied roll spawning 3-4 partisans in Russia and you might not be able to get control again.

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Re: AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

Post by supermax » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:10 pm

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Re: AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

Post by supermax » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:11 pm

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Re: AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

Post by supermax » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:12 pm

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Re: AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

Post by duncanr » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:50 pm

I think more than 5 turns and with weather going the right way it will be 45 - you could hurt the west quite badly with 1 counter attack if they aren't careful

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Re: AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:21 am

Impressive play by Vokt getting so strongly ashore in the Netherlands and steamrolling the Russians towards Berlin. It looks like he has built very well for these offensives.

I wonder how the German subs have been doing from 1942 till now? Were they decimated when the German surface fleet was destroyed or have they been sinking convoys regularly? Maybe the PP's spent on German surface ships (like the CV) would have been better spent on uboats. It was fun while it lasted to challenge the British on the surface in the Atlantic, but sinking convoys is more important. 6-8 subs is the minimum the Germans should have at all times until the ASW is so strong and the number of DD's too many to ambush the convoys. That usually happens in 1943 or later.

Amazing how many units Vokt has been able to produce. England is operating like a enormous aircraft carrier. Russia has a lot of tank and air units. Despite losing Moscow Vokt has been able to get lots of high quality Russian units.

I think this game shows that it's very hard to beat the Allies unless you can keep killing Allied and Russian units and convoys into 1943. Once they get enough units then you lose initiative faster than you realize. The downhill for the Axis is steeper than you fear in your worst nightmare. I wonder how it's possible to slow the German decline so it feels more historical. It's natural to believe something is broken seeing how the Germans can go from dominating Russia into collapse in just 1 year. I wonder if Vokt made it possible in 1941 by being able to save most of his army by trading space for time.

When I play the Axis and seeing the defense line is crumbling then I've had better results with defending at every river between the front line and the Oder. Once a river line is compromised then you move to the next one. If you can force the Russians to make a lot of attacks across river then losses will be lower. However, such a strategy is risky because if a line collapses before you anticipated it then units can get encircled. Full retreat towards Berlin just gives up too many decent defense lines in my opinion.

Could the Axis have done better if they had built fewer shiny air units and more corps and garrison units? I like to have enough stumbling blocks to slow the Allies down. Air units are very nice to have until 1943. At that time the Germans can't afford to repair the air units and if you then have 10+ fighters and 8 or so tactical bombers then a lot of invested PP's can't be used for anything. 1 fighter unit costs the same as 6 garrison units. When I play the Axis I usually hit rock bottom with the manpower level, but at least I get hordes of stumbling blocks.

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Re: AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

Post by Cybvep » Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:43 pm

Hey, let's look at the bright side. At least the oil situation is improving! :D

The Allied two-side steamroller is very fast in this game. Vokt seems to be well prepared for all this. I hope to read his comments!

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Re: AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

Post by Plaid » Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:24 pm

Actually Germans miss like 1500+ PPs from various sources (building surface navy, strategic bombing, rail overuse every turn, no surrender of Italy).
Sure, Max can field little less units, than would be ideal.

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Re: AAR: Supermax VS Vokt (No Vokt pls) Version 4.0

Post by SharpHalos » Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:00 pm

Plaid wrote:Actually Germans miss like 1500+ PPs from various sources (building surface navy, strategic bombing, rail overuse every turn, no surrender of Italy).
Sure, Max can field little less units, than would be ideal.
I have only completed about 10 games but I have read the AARs for years. Followed this one for awhile.

What I find distressing about this game is that Max began withdrawing from a strong position around Moscow basically at the start of the 1944 after holding it almost 2 years but at this point seems to have to little to show for it in terms of damage to the Red Army.

I haven't seen the casualties screen but the USSR was able to make good on those losses, build a land army steam roller, AND has a fairly impressive red airforce to support it. Ultimately covering all the bases he needed to when something should have had to give I'd think after the losses in Units and cities/convoy till 1944.

But when I look at the Red Army it seems irrelevant that the convoys stopped coming. I find it a bad sign Vokt didn't even seem interested in regaining the convoy for Russia even after losing Moscow and losing all those units in the encirclement NW of Moscow. Russian replaced the losses in a month and another 2 weeks they were pushing the Germans from Volgada.

Even with extra convoy though the allied air units seems excessive and it is scary what the USSR can do even though convoys and without Moscow... Maybe too scary in my humble 10 games worth of opinion... When was the last time I saw an AAR where Axis made it to Gorki or Sartov? A loooooong time I feel... The allied Air blob has always been an annoying thing (I think there should be more build limits in place to discourage every hex in the UK being filled with an air unit) but since when did Russians become so unbeatable regardless of losing Moscow and the PPs? It is one thing to absorb losses but the loss of such key objectives should be felt in the red army more? It did not even seem like a bug bite to them in retrospect.....

I also find the performance (and annihilation) of Max's Luftwaffe frightening. He built a strong fighter force which is the only thing the Germans can do to try and counter the allied air blob but it did not only prove ultimately ineffective but it seems to be that in some opinions he shouldn't have even tried... He made the right choice in my opinion but ultimately it didn't seem to matter and even worked against him. If the Germans make it their focus since 1939 to be able to fight the allied air blob than their air force should do more than prove the complete liability the way Max's ended up being I'd think.

I'm not sure if another 20 German Corps instead would have change much against the offensive firepower the allies have right now. So many Elite Units in Russia and Air units everywhere they should reach hamburg and Berlin by may 1945 for sure. Can't imagine any realistic Axis defense line Max could have had that would have saved him given what the Allies were able to build such is their firepower.

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