Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

PC : Turn based WW2 goodness in the mold of Panzer General. This promises to be a true classic!

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Musketeer
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Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

Post by Musketeer » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:09 pm

As a member of a state (CZECH) whose persons was slaughtered by German and Munich policy (see excerpt from wiki below) and whose tanks were by Hitler against other nations later etc. So I am asking you - how in the hell are you fighting morality in these type of game (Panzer Corps included) in the first place? I have really big problems playing Germans after buying game ("No refunds on digital!").
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"The Munich Agreement was a settlement permitting Nazi Germany's annexation of portions of Czechoslovakia along the country's borders mainly inhabited by German speakers, for which a new territorial designation "Sudetenland" was coined. The agreement was signed in the early hours of 30 September 1938 (but dated 29 September) after being negotiated at a conference held in Munich, Germany, among the major powers of Europe, excluding the Soviet Union. Today, it is widely regarded as a failed act of appeasement toward Germany. The purpose of the conference was to discuss the future of the Sudetenland in the face of ethnic demands made by Adolf Hitler. The agreement was signed by Germany, France, the United Kingdom and Italy. Sudetenland was of immense strategic importance to Czechoslovakia, as most of its border defenses, and banks were situated there,[citation needed] as well as heavy industrial districts. Part of the borderland was invaded and annexed by Poland.
Because the state of Czechoslovakia was not invited to the conference, it considered itself to have been betrayed by the United Kingdom and France, so Czechs and Slovaks call the Munich Agreement the Munich Diktat (Czech: Mnichovský diktát; Slovak: Mníchovský diktát). The phrase "Munich Betrayal" (Czech: Mnichovská zrada; Slovak: Mníchovská zrada) is also used because the military alliance Czechoslovakia had with France and Britain[citation needed] proved useless and also known because of the phrase "About us, without us!" This phrase is most hurtful for people of Czechoslovakia (Czech republic, Slovakia and Subcarpathian Ruthenia). Today the document is typically referred to simply as the Munich Pact (Mnichovská dohoda).
In Germany the Sudeten crisis led to the so-called Oster Conspiracy. General Hans Oster, deputy head of the Abwehr, and prominent figures within the German military who opposed the regime for its behaviour that was threatening to bring Germany into a war that they believed it was not ready to fight, discussed overthrowing Hitler and the Nazi regime through a planned storming of the Reich Chancellery by forces loyal to the plot."
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I am not trying to fire some old propaganda lies or something like that - just look at all this from personal level. How do you cope with history and re-playing it as NAzi general? Looking on documents about nazi slaughter gulags we are disgusted, yet many players of PC feel great when they conquer some French town without any loss or finish German Campaign with more prestige? Learning from history is also not the same like re-living conquer of Europa in shoes of German General... Yeah, Stalin and all that, same stuff. But, just see first line of this paragraph! Btw. Do you know anybody who come through hell of war and is still playing on it?

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Re: Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

Post by goose_2 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:11 pm

I hear what you are saying and understand your concern.

I am a little confused.

This is a game, largely based on the hugely successful game that came out in 1992 known as Panzer General, the name of the base game is called Panzer Corps. So, if you were thinking you were getting a game that centered from the Allied point of view than I would have recommended getting Allied Corps.

I for one, since I am well versed in the history of the war, really appreciate the opportunity to play these famous battles and to try and do better than what was done historically.

I love playing on mp the allied side of battles that were historically won by the Germans, as well as the ones where the Germans were set to lose and win those instead.

I enjoy this game and as a Lutheran the only thing that pricks my conscience is the time it takes me away from more edifying pursuits.

That is my 2 cents on your concern.
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Re: Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

Post by sn0wball » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:33 pm

As a German I am as anti-fascist as you can get. Still, I don´t have any problem here. This is a game about fairly abstract units pursuing abstract goals. I don´t see this as a game which lets you play a Nazi general. You don´t do that - or at least I don´t. While the designers try to create some personal aspect through the briefings or heroes, but to be frank, this doesn´t work for me. There is no personal element, neither on your side or the other. Briefings are just text and heroes are simply numbers. No people die on either side, units simply loose strength. More specifically, there are no civilians suffering, no innocent casualities, no collateral damage, either. That being said, it doesn´t make an ethical difference for me which side I play. Usually, with historical wargames, it is more interesting in a military simulation to play the historical looser. Also, the German armory is more fanciful that most others. In the end, if you win, the world will not suffer from axis rule, but the game is simply over.

I would, on the other hand, not play a game which lets me play Nazi on a personal level (a tactical game, a roleplaying game, an adventure), not because that is unethical, but, well, disgusting.

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Re: Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

Post by Musketeer » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:41 pm

I definitely respect all opinions... And thank for them. Maybe be it is in our human nature to be fighters and wage wars + seek tactical/strategy challenges even if we know it is slowly destroying and eating our soul?

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Re: Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

Post by jjglvz » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:18 am

I like to play Panzer Corps but I don't want my soul to be slowly eaten. What should I do? :shock:

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Re: Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

Post by Musketeer » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:36 am

This is morale fight which each (wo)man must solve and fight in himself... Where are his Morale standards and borders he do not cross etc. Everyone is quite different...But speaking about "battle statistics" and "soldiers as numbers", I am PERSONALLY reminded of Eichman before tribunal... It is sort of strange psychologic phenomena, that everybody from people which love this type of virtual warfare games will NEVER make SS carreer etc. in reality! :idea:

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Re: Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

Post by Psyx » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:58 am

I'm not [role]playing a nazi general; I'm playing a computer game. That's all it is. Not some fascist fantasy exploration.


Would it actually be very much better from a moral standpoint to be [role]playing an Allied general? I would still be glorifying war, enjoying killing thousands of people, levelling French towns with strategic bombers and sending tens of thousands of allies to their graves. Every sacrifice of a 'not important' non-core unit would be a horrific moral quandary that should leave me with nightmares for weeks.


Fortunately... this. is. a. game.

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Re: Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

Post by Musketeer » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:08 pm

Excuses about "just being game" is popular, but psychology works same nontheless... If you create models of airplanes they will be governed by same physical laws and rules like big ones. If you see first killed soldier mate in front, it is terrible and break you for month, if you see hundreth, it is just another day in war... You cant play War game and pretend that you dont know about its background. IT is sort of alibistic - real soldiers kill but in game? no!

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Re: Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

Post by Intenso82 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:37 pm

Would you like to play the game with some aspects of morality and historical facts, against Hitler?

I was thinking whether to include some sensitive content in Russia at War mod or not.

Though if you carefully study the history among England, France, USA, USSR, Poland was not 100% good guys. All involved in the causes of war.
[MOD] RUSSIA AT WAR:1941 - http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=75743

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Re: Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

Post by Psyx » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:43 pm

Musketeer wrote:Excuses about "just being game" is popular, but psychology works same nontheless... If you create models of airplanes they will be governed by same physical laws and rules like big ones. If you see first killed soldier mate in front, it is terrible and break you for month, if you see hundreth, it is just another day in war... You cant play War game and pretend that you dont know about its background. IT is sort of alibistic - real soldiers kill but in game? no!
So you don't play any violent computer games?

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Re: Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

Post by Musketeer » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:52 pm

Intenso82 wrote:Would you like to play the game with some aspects of morality and historical facts, against Hitler?
I was thinking whether to include some sensitive content in Russia at War mod or not.
Though if you carefully study the history among England, France, USA, USSR, Poland was not 100% good guys. All involved in the causes of war.
Of course - when any state is big enough they want more and more. Darwin in practice "The shirt is nearer than jacket" as they say in our country...

Then you play with weapons named after famous mass-killers: Josif Stalin anyone?
Last edited by Musketeer on Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

Post by Musketeer » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:54 pm

Psyx wrote:
Musketeer wrote:Excuses about "just being game" is popular, but psychology works same nontheless... If you create models of airplanes they will be governed by same physical laws and rules like big ones. If you see first killed soldier mate in front, it is terrible and break you for month, if you see hundreth, it is just another day in war... You cant play War game and pretend that you dont know about its background. IT is sort of alibistic - real soldiers kill but in game? no!
So you don't play any violent computer games?
Played as younger dude, loved strategy later, raised questions. Posted here :idea: .

In every game is hidden agression: In chess White goes first, proclamate feudal, kill or be killed, ... etc.

Only game which crates and dont destroys only is Chinese Go. You cant have all!

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Re: Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

Post by Intenso82 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:05 pm

Musketeer wrote: Part of the borderland was invaded and annexed by Poland.
You do not always have to be a big. Like Germany.
[MOD] RUSSIA AT WAR:1941 - http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=75743

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Re: Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

Post by Musketeer » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:07 pm

Intenso82 wrote:
Musketeer wrote: Part of the borderland was invaded and annexed by Poland.
You do not always have to be a big.
Precisely - every nations is cooking his soup on others account!

When Czech was "besetzt" in 1968 by Russians, everybody protested but it was completely useless...

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Re: Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

Post by ErissN6 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:38 pm

German games are very neutral and harmless, you should play them, such as farm simulator.

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Re: Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

Post by Musketeer » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:55 pm

I am of course aware of other genres, games etc...

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Re: Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

Post by ptje63 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:00 pm

Im Dutch, so our country was just one of many that suffered from WW2. Im very much interested in the history of WW2 and read many books. I never read heroic military accounts without forgetting what happened to the civilian population, etc.
But PC is a game in which I dont have to think about these matters - any strategic game works the same for me. Would not be able to play a basic game like chess for that sake if I were to think otherwise.
It is a game - not reality. So my preferences are different, although I respect your sentiments. I guess finding a different game would work better for you, if you still like to play strategic games?

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Re: Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

Post by Musketeer » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:11 pm

Still in moral dilemma here... :/ It still seems to me, that we (as tactical wargamers) try to be like some crazy-ass peoples (dominate others in game forcefully), which we now totally despise (Stalin da Conqueror), yet we play Finland from Russia side in PC etc. and simply emulate them. It costs only virtual lives and prestige, but you got my point...

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Re: Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

Post by turn4441 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:26 pm

While I can see your distaste for playing the German side, how is this any different from ANY other war game? Whether it is Alexander, Rome, Napoleon, US Civil War, WWI, WWII, space aliens, etc.; one or both sides can always be viewed as immoral, depending on your point of view. I am well aware of what transpired during the war, but do not consider myself evil for enjoying a 'chess-type' simulation that uses the rapid advancement of weaponry over a short period to make a stimulating mental challenge. Maybe by playing at war, even in such a abstract and sterilized form, we will be continually reminded of the REAL events that occurred and thus not be 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'.

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Re: Big discussion about strategy/tactics gaming morality

Post by Musketeer » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:29 pm

True! Everything including wargames is more and more real, VR ahead...

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