Syrian States - only 2 non-allied sub commanders

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samwardesq
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Syrian States - only 2 non-allied sub commanders

Post by samwardesq » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:31 am

Excuse me if i am missing something, but why are only up to 2 non-allied commanders allowed states general, while every other army i can find can choose 3?

petedalby
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Re: Syrian States - only 2 non-allied sub commanders

Post by petedalby » Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:45 am

It seems this restriction appears when an army / nation has a history of fighting amongst themselves or turning on each other.

There are some other examples - Ancient Spanish, Gallic & Wars of the Roses are 3 that spring to mind and I am sure there will be others.
Pete

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Re: Syrian States - only 2 non-allied sub commanders

Post by berthier » Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:09 pm

I suspect this restriction arose out of the lack of cohesiveness the Syrian Turks demonstrated in the 1st Crusade. Prime example would be Karbuqa (Kerbogha in western sources), atabeg of Mosul's attempted relief and then siege of Antioch in 1098. According to most sources, Karbuga's army fell apart due to internal rivalries between the varied Arab and Syrian leaders that had joined his army when the Crusaders marched out to give battle and break the siege. Duqaq of Damascus' forces were the first to desert Karbuqa's army and the rest quickly followed. Most Muslim sources poignantly note that the other Muslim leaders were only in agreement in their fear of Karbuqa's goal of dominating them and chose self-preservation to crushing the Christians.

The following sources from the Moslem point of view help describe this sort of jealousy that doomed the Moslem position in the 1st Crusade and at times later derailed promising efforts to eject the crusaders from the Levant.

Ibn al-Athir, Izz al-Din, The Chronicle of Ibn al-Athir for the Crusading Period from al-Kamil fi’l-Ta’ rikh. Part I, translated by D. S. Richards (Surrey, 2010).
Francesco Gabrieli. Arab Historians of the Crusades. Translated by E. J. Costello (Los Angeles, 1969).
Amin Maalouf. The Crusades Through Arab Eyes, translated by Jon Rothschild (New York, 1984).
Ibn Al-Qalānisī, The Damascus Chronicle of the Crusades, trans. H. A. R. Gibb (New York, 2002).
Last edited by berthier on Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Christopher Anders
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petedalby
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Re: Syrian States - only 2 non-allied sub commanders

Post by petedalby » Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:56 pm

Great post Chris - and I'm reminded of the excellent SPI board game of the 1st Crusade that models this really well with the conflicting victory conditions for each player - fond memories.
Pete

samwardesq
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Re: Syrian States - only 2 non-allied sub commanders

Post by samwardesq » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:39 am

Thanks, Chris,
for this detailed and informative reply,
happy new year to all.
Sam

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Re: Syrian States - only 2 non-allied sub commanders

Post by berthier » Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:54 am

In my research for the 1st Crusades Campaign that I am working on, I found a another reference to the fragmented state of the Muslims in Syria at the time of the First Crusade.

Kohler, Michael A., Alliances and Treaties between Frankish and Muslim Rulers in the Middle East: Cross-Cultural Diplomacy in the Period of the Crusades, Translated by Peter M. Holt. (Boston, 2013).

Chapter I is titled "The Development of the Syrian System of Autonomous Lordships (c. 1070-1099)."
Chapter II is "Relations Between the Frankish, Turkish and Arab States in the Period of the Syrian Autonomous Rulers (1098-1158)." This chapter has a section dedicated to relations between the Syrian Lordships and Allied Turkish Armies up to 1128.
Chapter III is "Frankish-Muslim Relations in the Period of Nur al-Din and Saladin (1158-92)."
Chapter IV deals more with Frankish-Muslim legal relations.

While only four chapters might seem like a superficial survey, this book actually weighs in at over 360 pages. Chapter I can be found on Academia while the entire book is available from Amazon and Brill for $193.00. Interestingly enough, Brill also offers an e-book for only $197.00.
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grahambriggs
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Re: Syrian States - only 2 non-allied sub commanders

Post by grahambriggs » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:55 pm

berthier wrote:In my research for the 1st Crusades Campaign that I am working on, I found a another reference to the fragmented state of the Muslims in Syria at the time of the First Crusade.

Kohler, Michael A., Alliances and Treaties between Frankish and Muslim Rulers in the Middle East: Cross-Cultural Diplomacy in the Period of the Crusades, Translated by Peter M. Holt. (Boston, 2013).

Chapter I is titled "The Development of the Syrian System of Autonomous Lordships (c. 1070-1099)."
Chapter II is "Relations Between the Frankish, Turkish and Arab States in the Period of the Syrian Autonomous Rulers (1098-1158)." This chapter has a section dedicated to relations between the Syrian Lordships and Allied Turkish Armies up to 1128.
Chapter III is "Frankish-Muslim Relations in the Period of Nur al-Din and Saladin (1158-92)."
Chapter IV deals more with Frankish-Muslim legal relations.

While only four chapters might seem like a superficial survey, this book actually weighs in at over 360 pages. Chapter I can be found on Academia while the entire book is available from Amazon and Brill for $193.00. Interestingly enough, Brill also offers an e-book for only $197.00.
$190. WHooowee! that's high. I got 8 first crusade primary sources for less than that.

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