A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Discuss

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GabeKnight
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by GabeKnight » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:18 pm

cutydt02 wrote:I want to ask pro players how to clear sky at 5th diffcult ? They just wipe me out or even i can deal with them, its too late to use stuka ??
Lookie here: Sandstorm let's play (replay style) :)
"13obo" usually plays at highest difficulty.

13obo
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by 13obo » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:00 am

Cutydt02:
- Always bring half of your air CP worth as fighters. Towards the end of the game, I was deploying 5 fighters, and no less than 3 in any other mission that has enemy air.
- Use AA - the Italians have the Lancia AA/AT, which is great and I had two of them.
- To use them correctly as AA, you have to "lure" the enemy air close to your ground army by keeping your air units near your ground ones. That doesn't mean your air units need to be sitting idle- you can bomb with them in the beginning of the turn, position fighters to protect the bombers, and then move the rest of the army where your planes ended their turn. On enemy turn, the enemy air will come to your planes, and then you start your turn with perfect target practice for your AA. Maybe this sounds confusing, so as GabeKnight said, watch the replays.

cutydt02
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by cutydt02 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:30 am

13obo wrote:Cutydt02:
- Always bring half of your air CP worth as fighters. Towards the end of the game, I was deploying 5 fighters, and no less than 3 in any other mission that has enemy air.
- Use AA - the Italians have the Lancia AA/AT, which is great and I had two of them.
- To use them correctly as AA, you have to "lure" the enemy air close to your ground army by keeping your air units near your ground ones. That doesn't mean your air units need to be sitting idle- you can bomb with them in the beginning of the turn, position fighters to protect the bombers, and then move the rest of the army where your planes ended their turn. On enemy turn, the enemy air will come to your planes, and then you start your turn with perfect target practice for your AA. Maybe this sounds confusing, so as GabeKnight said, watch the replays.
Thanks bro, i just miss the Oob file on computer (play as norma with desktop icon, i never know why??) so i cant see any replays and youtobe just have 3th diff walkthrough

95bravo
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by 95bravo » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:33 pm

GabeKnight wrote:
Andy2012 wrote: Well, if you dont get it perfectly right with the paradrops, this takes a lot longer. If you do it right, you dont need all these turns. But this is mostly about giving less experienced players a chance to finish this.
Yep. I did a test once to "simulate" an inexperienced player ( :wink: ) with some rookie mistakes during the landings of the paras and not securing the supply hexes right. Cost me an airfield and two para units. Didn't get no core paras as reward either. Then the deployed planes couldn't land right, had to take losses due to fuel shortage. The finally landed planes were under constant bombardment of the enemy strat. bombers. No reinforcements in sight... and so on... THEN those extra turns are needed - if one chooses not to restart the scenario.
I'm one of those rookies that can't find a supply point near the airfield. And I don't recall a supply ship being present. After I land my drops they all sit and wait for some Chianti to be delivered.

Andy2012
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by Andy2012 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:19 pm

@95bravo: Press Spacebar. There are supply points for 8 points (enough for two paras) right next to each airfield. Each has a flag.

95bravo
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by 95bravo » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:51 pm

Bless you. my child. For you are doing saintly good deeds!!

CoolDTA
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by CoolDTA » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:07 pm

Played the last two scenarios. I think they were a bit on the easy side. The last Italian tank (P43 bis) and tac bomber (Savoia-Marchetti SM.89) upgrades are excellent. Upgraded couple of German tanks to Tigers just for fun.

All in all another quality campaign. Italian troops and equipment were a welcome addition and they are not that bad either. As always, you probably end up swimming in RPs around Cairo (or sthg like that). Maybe I should no longer play at lvl 3. Dunno.

Andy2012
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by Andy2012 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:46 am

Alright, 18 turns and the Allies are obliterated in Africa by my unyielding Afrikakorps. No losses, medium diff.

With a lot of spending money for both factions, I bought new tanks for each (Pz IVH for my Wehrmacht, that Tiger equivalent for the Italians). I spurn Tigers and Panthers since I think they are overpriced and not necessary here. Also, I dont get Stuka Gs. Most of the enemy forces are soft targets and I dont need a tankbuster here. (Also, didnt need it in Kursk...sadly.)

This is pretty much straightforward and if you know how to play OoB and stick to a few basic rules, you should do fine.

I deployed my Italians in the west, Wehrmacht in the east. The British attack the east and have experienced troops, so this makes more sense.
Quick walkthrough:

1. Deploy for a static defense in the east first, for a rather mobile one in the west.
2. Fly recon planes along the paved road between Bones and Thebessa. Destroy incursions into your supply line. Watch out for US fighter bombers, bombers and a paradrop around turn 12, I think, in the south.
3. If you stick to this and shell advancing US forces from the east and the occassional western attack, you will be fine and getting two supply trains to Bone is a piece of cake.
4. The British attack the East: Deploy behind the river, infantry in front, Stugs covering the rear, tanks in waiting. Fighters clear the skies, Stukas kill stragglers.
5. If you do it right, the British will have exhausted themselves in 6-8 turns. Counterattack with your tanks and Stukas. Seize the two supply dumps (silver flags), advance towards Bone on the coastal road, done.

While I found these last few missions a bit too easy for me, I remember that during the beta some missions were over the top difficult in their first versions. So getting this right for everybody is a tough job, I think. However, I have to acknowledge the careful mission design and how supply routes were placed and made a more integral part of winning missions. This played very differently from Panzerkrieg - which had too few resources for my taste.
How did everybody else do?

13obo
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by 13obo » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:01 pm

Congrats on a completed campaign! I also found the last few missions on the easy side both due to RP abundance and insufficient enemy strength. Or maybe it's difficult to create ambushes for the players in the dessert like those we had in the forests of Russia/Ardennes? Surprise attacks from the forest had a big factor in creating a difficult scenario for me in previous DLCs.

Missions are definitely very dynamic though and have one of the best trigger designs in OOB. More of that please!

CoolDTA
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by CoolDTA » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:02 pm

Andy2012 wrote: Also, I dont get Stuka Gs. Most of the enemy forces are soft targets and I dont need a tankbuster here. (Also, didnt need it in Kursk...sadly.)
I think Stuka D is a better buy and good enough in tank busting also (Kursk included). Thanks a lot for all your reports. I'm sure they will be googled many, many times in the future. :)

Andy2012
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by Andy2012 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:40 pm

Alright, I thought about this for a while and I cant just quite pinpoint it.
With Sandstorm, some players wrote about it being a bit too easy. Panzerkrieg kind of got a totally different reviews, the first iterations had too few resources.

But the more I rummaged this topic around in my head, the less clear it felt to me - what makes a mission difficult or a whole campaign difficult or even too easy? What is a good difficulty? Sure, there is resources and objectives and turn limits. But none of them alone quite allow me to pinpoint the accurate modifier for difficulty.

Some examples: If I get a ton of resources, I can still mismanage my core. Tons of enemy units can feel easy despite their number. Elaborate strategies necessary to win can be obvious to some and frustrating to others.

My question here now is - if you are or were unhappy with the difficulty of any DLC campaign (playing on default medium), what parameter would you change? Credits, control points, mission design forcing a certain strategy while making others impossible? Something else?
I am myself pretty certain that just switching to Fieldmarshal difficulty and going full kondi would not help. :mrgreen:

13obo
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by 13obo » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:14 pm

Things that make sandstorm easier compared to bk/pk:

- Most early missions have open sand terrain where enemy can't conceal and is easy to plan positioning- ex 1st and 2nd missions. This also makes leap frogging your units (moving back units first so that you move forward as a wave).

- Open terrain also obsoletes cover attack/defense mechanics. This mechanic is one of main things that creates the "hard to master feel" in the game where positioning is no longer just about tanks infront/everything else behind. Infantry units are obsolete because there's little cover.

- Late missions are contrary to this with only one route forward due to mountain or very difficult terrain- ex. Kasserine pass/suez.

Tl;dr: fight in dessert is easy to plan and execute with little surprises. Surprise is worst enemy of a commander.
Last edited by 13obo on Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Andy2012
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by Andy2012 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:45 pm

13obo wrote:Things that make sandstorm easier compared to bk/pk:

- Most early missions have open sand terrain where enemy can't conceal and is easy to plan positioning- ex 1st and 2nd missions. This also makes leap frogging your units (moving back units first so that you move forward as a wave) easy because they can be moved from back to front.

- Open terrain also obsoletes cover attack/defense mechanics. This mechanic is one of main things that creates the "hard to master feel" in the game where positioning is no longer just about tanks infront/everything else behind. Infantry units are obsolete because there's little cover.

- Late missions are contrary to this with only one route forward due to mountain or very difficult terrain- ex. Kasserine pass/suez.

Tl;dr: fight in dessert is easy to plan and execute with little surprises. Surprise is worst enemy of a commander.
See, I think I was kind of right to ask around in this thread. I never thought about terrain and cover that much, mostly focused on credits, exp and enemy numbers. Good answer!
I also thought about strategy as a difficulty modifier. I think the devs mostly pride themselves that various cores and approaches are possible at all times. (Which is good.) However, I think this also decreases difficulty. Also, turn limits in OoB are always very generous, I feel.
Anybody else?

cutydt02
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by cutydt02 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:09 pm

I think resource is the worst problem. Sanstorm is different but not hard, even compare to blitzkrieg because rps of italian and german is very many from start. I can easily complete normal diff of both but in panzerkrieg, from begin to end, i always end a scenario with half core units below 6 strength, no resource to repair them and victory with a headache isnt so fun. At kursk, i cant test all new war machines like narshon, hummel and ferdinan, its very hurt compare to panzer corps
P/s increase 200 rps in 5 first scenarios is enough to feel the game for me (just enough for 3 k18)

13obo
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by 13obo » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:08 am

A simple "prestige gain" modifier for adjusting the amount of prestige the player receives would be a great addition to the difficulties.

CoolDTA
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by CoolDTA » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:05 am

For me the "problem" is the same in all DLCs (Blitzkrieg and Panzerkrieg included): the amount of RPs is very generous. But I know quite a few players have some difficulties with the lack of resources, which means the amount probably is set just about right. I agree with Andy of what he said about turn limits. It would be nice if there were (more) secondary objectives awarding the player if he finishes the battle quickly. If properly set, this would require a bolder approach resulting in more losses and thus less RPs. But you could also forgo the objective and the reward and play it safe and cautious (I know OoB-veterans wouldn't be able to do that ;)).
13obo wrote:A simple "prestige gain" modifier for adjusting the amount of prestige the player receives would be a great addition to the difficulties.
+1

Andy2012
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by Andy2012 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:22 am

Okay, so now we have terrain and scouting, turn limits, resources (mostly) and strategy required as well as secondary goals as difficulty modifiers. Also, campaigns feel differently. I agree that Panzerkrieg felt a lot more exhausting for your core (kind of historically correct, the Wehrmacht was struggling) while Sandstorm felt relaxed in terms of resources (ahistorical, Rommel was always on a tight budget). I think different DLCs can achieve difficulty levels in different ways and still make sense, e.g. be exceptionally quick in Sandstorm and be outnumbered on a tight budget in a future Endkrieg DLC.

Another thing that came to my mind is upgrade prices and units prices and necessary units in your core to win. Sure, you cant win without arty or an airforce - but you dont actually need heavy tanks like the Panther or Tiger. I avoided them or just could never afford them in Panzerkrieg and in Sandstorm I didnt bother because my Pz IV J or G were sufficient. Also, those upgrades between versions are sometimes ridiculously expensive. Sometimes, I think this should be modified a bit, too. But I am not sure how. What do you guys think about this problem?

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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by bebro » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:43 am

IMO the player should not be low on RP all the time. However, as some replies show, "low" is not an absolute amount - it can depend on a number of things (how much losses does player X take, what does he expect to buy, esp. in high-cost units, how does he handle upgrades?)

If the consensus is that things are ok on normal and allow a decent core, ppl struggling should consider going one step down with the difficulty.

If the consensus is that things are too frustrating already on normal, we can change things - as we did on some occasions.

Re turn times/numbers, this would IMO depend on specific scns - personally I don't want to battle the clock all the time, rather the enemy. But there's surely a case for low time in certain battles

13obo
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by 13obo » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:52 am

To be fair I'm not a fan of the super tight turn limits on Panzer General/Corps/Unity of Command where the game becomes more of a puzzle-solve how to get to the objectives on time, rather than a tactical game of adapting to enemy and taking different approaches. In this sense, I like OOB that it doesn't impose with strict times.

However, I was often able to complete Sandstorm missions with half the turn allowance at highest difficulty, and without too much effort either, so there's definitely a bit of room for improvement.

cutydt02
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by cutydt02 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:08 pm

Well i think it will be okey too if upgrade cost not so much. The slighly upgrade may cost 1/2 of purchasing new one. It would be a newbie or veteran to buy tiger H, and upgrade to E cost total 420 rps

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