Dreadnoughts need more armor

Warhammer 40,000: Gladius Relics of War brings you to a world of terror and violence. Four factions will engage in a brutal war for dominance over the planets resources.
Dwarf_power
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Dreadnoughts need more armor

Post by Dwarf_power » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:28 pm

They start with 7 armor. In comparison, a Space Marine Tactical unit starts with 8 armor.
According to the lore, Dreadnoughts have more armor then Space Marines. It's a walking tank. Please give it more armor.

Rosseau
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Re: Dreadnoughts need more armor

Post by Rosseau » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:22 am

It's right in the xml file ready for you to change. Let us know if you need help:

<armor set="7"/> <!-- %armor set armor=12/10/10 -->
<meleeArmorPenetration set="0.0"/> <!-- %meleeArmorPenetration set strength=6 -->
<hitpointsMax set="24.0"/> <!-- %hitpointsMax set armor=12/10/10 wounds=3 -->
<meleeAccuracy set="8"/> <!-- %meleeAccuracy set weaponSkill=4 -->
<meleeAttacks set="3"/>
<meleeDamage set="3"/> <!-- %meleeDamage set strength=6 -->
<!-- <meleeInitiative set="4"/> -->
<moraleMax set="10"/>
<movementMax set="3"/>
<productionCost set="36.0"/> <!-- %productionCost set tier=6 factor=1 -->
<rangedAccuracy set="8"/> <!-- %rangedAccuracy set ballisticSkill=4 -->
<requisitions set="-2.0"/> <!-- %requisitions set tier=6 factor=1 -->
<requisitionsCost set="40.0"/> <!-- %requisitionsCost set tier=6 factor=1 -->

Dwarf_power
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Re: Dreadnoughts need more armor

Post by Dwarf_power » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:54 am

Rosseau wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:22 am
It's right in the xml file ready for you to change. Let us know if you need help:

<armor set="7"/> <!-- %armor set armor=12/10/10 -->
<meleeArmorPenetration set="0.0"/> <!-- %meleeArmorPenetration set strength=6 -->
<hitpointsMax set="24.0"/> <!-- %hitpointsMax set armor=12/10/10 wounds=3 -->
<meleeAccuracy set="8"/> <!-- %meleeAccuracy set weaponSkill=4 -->
<meleeAttacks set="3"/>
<meleeDamage set="3"/> <!-- %meleeDamage set strength=6 -->
<!-- <meleeInitiative set="4"/> -->
<moraleMax set="10"/>
<movementMax set="3"/>
<productionCost set="36.0"/> <!-- %productionCost set tier=6 factor=1 -->
<rangedAccuracy set="8"/> <!-- %rangedAccuracy set ballisticSkill=4 -->
<requisitions set="-2.0"/> <!-- %requisitions set tier=6 factor=1 -->
<requisitionsCost set="40.0"/> <!-- %requisitionsCost set tier=6 factor=1 -->
What effect does this have on multiplayer?

Rosseau
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Re: Dreadnoughts need more armor

Post by Rosseau » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:13 am

Probably a "no go," but I don't use MP. Even if both players used the same modded file, it could be trouble. I'm too SP-centric ;)

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Re: Dreadnoughts need more armor

Post by eddieballgame » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:54 am

As long as each participant has the identical modded XML files, there should be no issues. Obviously if one player has different XML files then the rest there will be a 'mismatch' of some sort.
This also prevents someone from gaining an upper-hand.

Taare
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Re: Dreadnoughts need more armor

Post by Taare » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:24 am

I know that the devs were worried in the beta about upping the armor of the dreadnought in fear of it becoming op, personally i think them pretty useless right now, and would rather it have lesser firepower but more staying power.

eddieballgame
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Re: Dreadnoughts need more armor

Post by eddieballgame » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:46 am

Space Marines ( Assault, Tactical, & Devastator )
<armor set="8"/> <!-- %armor set armor=3+ -->
<meleeArmorPenetration set="0.0"/> <!-- %meleeArmorPenetration set strength=4 -->
<hitpointsMax set="3.0"/> <!-- %hitpointsMax set toughness=4 wounds=1 -->

Dreadnought
<armor set="7"/> <!-- %armor set armor=12/10/10 -->
<meleeArmorPenetration set="0.0"/> <!-- %meleeArmorPenetration set strength=6 -->
<hitpointsMax set="24.0"/> <!-- %hitpointsMax set armor=12/10/10 wounds=3 -->

Not sure how to read the numbers per these units, but overall the Dreadnought looks pretty tough to me.
The games I have used them also have shown them to be quite effective.
Last edited by eddieballgame on Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dreadnoughts need more armor

Post by IainMcNeil » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:11 am

It has been discussed before but no consensus if it needs to be changed.

Dwarf_power
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Re: Dreadnoughts need more armor

Post by Dwarf_power » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:01 pm

IainMcNeil wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:11 am
It has been discussed before but no consensus if it needs to be changed.
You guys think a walking battle tank having less armor then a space marine is good gameplay and lore balance?
I stopped using them because they get shredded like paper.
A tactical marine unit can soak more damage then a Dreadnought.

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Re: Dreadnoughts need more armor

Post by eddieballgame » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:32 pm

Dwarf_power wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:01 pm
IainMcNeil wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:11 am
It has been discussed before but no consensus if it needs to be changed.
You guys think a walking battle tank having less armor then a space marine is good gameplay and lore balance?
I stopped using them because they get shredded like paper.
A tactical marine unit can soak more damage then a Dreadnought.
You are overlooking the hps & firepower. I will take Dreadnoughts over Marines any day.

Taare
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Re: Dreadnoughts need more armor

Post by Taare » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:24 pm

i will take devastators over dreadnoughts any day. dreadnoughts are paper, take an armory production slot and are slow. drop the multimeta and up armor a lot more

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Re: Dreadnoughts need more armor

Post by Shuul » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:51 pm

My suggestion would be to up the armor a bit and to replace multi-melta with something else (there are MUCH better units for AT duty), I believe the best here would be a canonical assault cannon, that is the default weapon for dreadnoughts in tabletop and most PC games.
Currently dreads are not worth using at all, IMO.

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Re: Dreadnoughts need more armor

Post by Dwarf_power » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:20 pm

eddieballgame wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:32 pm
Dwarf_power wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:01 pm
IainMcNeil wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:11 am
It has been discussed before but no consensus if it needs to be changed.
You guys think a walking battle tank having less armor then a space marine is good gameplay and lore balance?
I stopped using them because they get shredded like paper.
A tactical marine unit can soak more damage then a Dreadnought.
You are overlooking the hps & firepower. I will take Dreadnoughts over Marines any day.
What good is the health when it gets immediately focus fired as soon as you drop one into combat? It's not a frontline unit (although it's supposed to be), and if you put one on the edge of a fight to flank, the AI will just surround it and focus fire it anyway.
They end up getting destroyed or so badly damaged that they almost need two dedicated techmarines to keep healing them, which is a waste of two thunderfire cannon units.

A Dread has too much risk as it needs to close within melee distance to be fully effective, and I would rather use Devastators and Predators at range then risk sending a Dread in the thick of it.

The only units that can withstand melee range punishment at the frontline is the Captain, Chaplain, and Terminators. A Dread should be more resilient then a Terminator, and yet it's weaker then a Space Marine. It's pretty ridiculous.

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Re: Dreadnoughts need more armor

Post by ErissN6 » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:10 am

Maybe you don't know how to use a Dreanought, which have a bad back armor (he's not good in general melee):
Don't show it, bring it to the front only when the fight has already begun, then protect his sides (so he can't be too much focused on). He will be the very heavy cavalry (slow charge, then to be retreated soon).

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Re: Dreadnoughts need more armor

Post by eddieballgame » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:33 am

I have done some testing with the Devastators vs the Dreadnoughts. Basically created a mod pumping out those two units & playing 'hotseat'.
I stand corrected...the Devastators appear to be a superior unit, particularly when factoring in the time & cost to produce them. In 1on1 battles, even with the Dreadnoughts going first, the Devastators had the better results. I raised the Dreadnought's armor to 8 & the results were better for them, of course the first shot is key.
Depending on how much tougher one thinks the Mechs should be, I could see raising them to a 9
The beauty of this game is there is an easy solution for those that want tougher Dreadnoughts, just raise their armor to 8 or more.
Would be curious what the overall consensus is per this unit's value in combat. It is easy to 'improve' a single unit, but a little more difficult to do in the context of all the units.
Last edited by eddieballgame on Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ErissN6
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Re: Dreadnoughts need more armor

Post by ErissN6 » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:32 am

eddieballgame wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:33 am
done some testing with the Devastators vs the Dreadnoughts... the Devastators appear to be a superior unit. In 1 on1 battles, even with the Dreadnoughts going first, the Devastators had the better results.
Devastators are stationary long-range anti-tank (and close-range anti-infantry), while Dreadnought are slow mobile close-range destroyer (his long-range weaponry stands accurate but not as piercing). Who should win depends on the situation: usually the devastator is set far back upon a cliff to have good aims, the dreadnough must have to close to him by an uneasy trail (while never showing his back to any enemy) where the devastator would be able to shoot him several times before the dreadnough reach to fight.. That's why dreadnough like fighting in breaking LoS areas, such as cities.
But in Gladius the shooting ranges are short compare to movement, so to balance this something is to be done (I imagine per making more powerfull weapons, or even removing some armour on slow machine which must never show its back..).

eddieballgame
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Re: Dreadnoughts need more armor

Post by eddieballgame » Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:18 am

Interesting read per the WH 40K Dreadnought.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Dreadnought

This gives me an idea to mod in a new version of the Dreadnought, while keeping the existing one & moving it to the same Tier lvl as the Devastator.

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Re: Dreadnoughts need more armor

Post by Dwarf_power » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:02 am

ErissN6 wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:10 am
Maybe you don't know how to use a Dreanought, which have a bad back armor (he's not good in general melee):
Don't show it, bring it to the front only when the fight has already begun, then protect his sides
This game doesn't model directional armor. It doesn't matter if a unit gets attacked from the back/side, since the model will spin to face an attacker anyway.
Secondly, they are godly in melee. Your statement is flat out wrong.
Thirdly, I already explained a scenario where I'm dropping them in combat after the fight as started, using them on the flanks. They get focus fired by all ranged units, so even if I surrounded my dreadnought with marines (which is a comical idea....using squishy marines to protect an armor plated dreadnought), he will still go down to ranged attacks, especially from Ork air units.

The dreadnought is just flat out squishy. Not sure what argument you're trying to make.

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Re: Dreadnoughts need more armor

Post by ErissN6 » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:00 am

Dwarf_power wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:02 am
they are godly in melee. Your statement is flat out wrong.
A comical idea....using squishy marines to protect an armor plated dreadnought.
He will still go down to ranged attacks, especially from Ork air units
I said "general melee". Yeah put it ahead in a corridor, and he is a god making melees one by one against who arrives in front of him.
Put it in a field in a general melee, and he will be easily destroyed if its sides are not enough covered.
Hence yes he should be vulnerable from the air.
He's godly only if the enemy stands in front of him.

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Re: Dreadnoughts need more armor

Post by IainMcNeil » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:55 am

The armour comes from the codex apparently unless someone got it wrong.

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