Surrender mechanic

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BigRedJuan
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
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Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:15 am

Surrender mechanic

Post by BigRedJuan » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:59 pm

I don't understand how the surrender mechanic works when at least one of the surrounding units is friendly. A unit can move "through" a friendly unit to reach a position. But when that same unit is suppressed and forced to retreat, it then cannot move "through" that friendly unit and is forced to surrender. Can someone explain why this is? It seems like as long as the retreating unit can reach an open hex within its available movement range (e.g. 3 hexes for regular infantry) it should be able to retreat.

On a related note, it doesn't make sense that units cannot "swap" positions, but I think I saw somewhere that is allowed in the new game. Anyways, thanks in advance.

huckc
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
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Re: Surrender mechanic

Post by huckc » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:02 am

I think it comes down to this: fun and gameplay mechanics.

Surrendering a unit is fun especially when it's pinned by friendly troops. It's relatively rare in the game to completely surround an enemy.

What's not fun is if it moves back to safety behind the line three hexes deep and replenishes fully the next turn. You'd essentially be punished for hitting the enemy hard enough to cause a retreat which doesn't make sense gameplay-wise or in the real world.

Edgewalker
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 251/1
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Re: Surrender mechanic

Post by Edgewalker » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:30 pm

huckc wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:02 am
I think it comes down to this: fun and gameplay mechanics.

Surrendering a unit is fun especially when it's pinned by friendly troops. It's relatively rare in the game to completely surround an enemy.

What's not fun is if it moves back to safety behind the line three hexes deep and replenishes fully the next turn. You'd essentially be punished for hitting the enemy hard enough to cause a retreat which doesn't make sense gameplay-wise or in the real world.
Pinned by friendly troops?
Being able to pull back through your own troops doesn't make sense in the real world?

Are you for real?

goose_2
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
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Re: Surrender mechanic

Post by goose_2 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 pm

I love the surrender aspect of gameplay, and earning prestige for doing so.

It is a tactic that seperates the men from the boys, please do not lose this aspect of the game.

It forces a player to learn the what I call the hedge hog defense...meaning set up your units in such a way that they have somewhere to retreat should they get pounded, it is not full proof, but it increases your decision making.
goose_2
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Edgewalker
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 251/1
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz  251/1
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Re: Surrender mechanic

Post by Edgewalker » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:39 pm

goose_2 wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 pm
I love the surrender aspect of gameplay, and earning prestige for doing so.

It is a tactic that seperates the men from the boys, please do not lose this aspect of the game.

It forces a player to learn the what I call the hedge hog defense...meaning set up your units in such a way that they have somewhere to retreat should they get pounded, it is not full proof, but it increases your decision making.
It's more beneficial to be attacked with 5 enemy units adjacent than with 1 enemy and 5 friendly units adjacent.
God forbid you protect your own flanks with tank battalions - remember to leave at least one flank open so you can be separated from the boys by this supreme tactic.

PeteMitchell_2
Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
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Re: Surrender mechanic

Post by PeteMitchell_2 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:46 pm

Edgewalker wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:39 pm
It's more beneficial to be attacked with 5 enemy units adjacent than with 1 enemy and 5 friendly units adjacent.
This seems to be due to the mass attack bonus...

CaesarCzech
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
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Re: Surrender mechanic

Post by CaesarCzech » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:21 am

Agreed, Current surrender mechanic is heavily broken. Heavily broken and makes imposible the Tight defence.

BigRedJuan
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:15 am

Re: Surrender mechanic

Post by BigRedJuan » Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:58 pm

Maybe its a matter of word choice? "Overrun" would seem to make sense if you are attacking a completely suppressed enemy with no entrenchment.

But one problem with that view is that you then should be able to "overrun" similarly suppressed and non-entrenched units regardless even if they are not completely surrounded. That type of "overrun" or "routed" mechanic actually appeals to me, but I have no idea how it could potentially break game balancing.

JaM2013
Master Sergeant - U-boat
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Re: Surrender mechanic

Post by JaM2013 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:41 am

Surrender mechanics in PzC is main reason why i usually play the game with 5 point buffer - instead of having default strength 10, i go for 15 (+5), while i adjust the gamerules file to set maximum firing strength to 10, so additional 5 is considered a reserve - This way, you need a lot more firepower to completely suppress the unit to force it to surrender, while having actual combat reserve is more realistic as units in combat would rarely commit entire force into attack but would usually keep at least 1/3 of the force as reserve anyway...

Of course, this makes battles a bit more challenging time wise, but i find it better challenge than giving AI some crazy bonuses...
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Rudankort
FlashBack Games
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Re: Surrender mechanic

Post by Rudankort » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:47 pm

This is not 100% final, but right now retreat in Panzer Corps 2 works according to generic move rules. So, if a unit can move to a certain hex, it can retreat to this hex. This means that a unit surrounded by 2 friendly units and 4 enemies cannot retreat, because a move through enemy ZOC is not allowed, but if it's 3 friendly/3 enemies, then there is an escape route. Another new rule is that retreat spends movement points too, so if you force a unit to retreat to some difficult terrain once (e. g. a river) then next time it will surrender because it has no movement points left.

goose_2
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Re: Surrender mechanic

Post by goose_2 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:51 pm

Rudankort wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:47 pm
This is not 100% final, but right now retreat in Panzer Corps 2 works according to generic move rules. So, if a unit can move to a certain hex, it can retreat to this hex. This means that a unit surrounded by 2 friendly units and 4 enemies cannot retreat, because a move through enemy ZOC is not allowed, but if it's 3 friendly/3 enemies, then there is an escape route. Another new rule is that retreat spends movement points too, so if you force a unit to retreat to some difficult terrain once (e. g. a river) then next time it will surrender because it has no movement points left.
I look forward to play testing this, I for one love the surrender tactic, but modification sounds interesting
goose_2
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