More Mixed Battlegroup Shenanigans

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philqw78
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More Mixed Battlegroup Shenanigans

Post by philqw78 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:39 pm

When do they count as HF and when do they count as MF, when do they count as what the bases affected are?
phil
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petedalby
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Re: More Mixed Battlegroup Shenanigans

Post by petedalby » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:23 pm

Hi Phil - Page 112 - Book 3 Army Lists:

LB count as HF for all purposes - movement, combat and cohesion test unless the men-at arms bases have been removed at which point they are back to MF. Specific reference that they still count as MF for shooting to cover support shooting I guess.

Seems reasonably clear or am I missing something?
Pete

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Re: More Mixed Battlegroup Shenanigans

Post by ChrisTofalos » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:30 pm

Some Book 3 lists, such as Late Plantagenet English, state mixed HF/Longbows count as HF for all purposes (movement, combat, cohesion tests). This actually contradicts the terrain disorder effect rules on page 130, which state only the bases in the terrain are affected, so rear rank MF really shouldn't lose any dice in some bad terrain. But then, shouldn't they also count a minus on CTs if they find themselves in the front rank of a melee (after a base removal) and in the open against shock or HF?

It's worth pointing out, there is no such extra wording in some lists, for e.g., Medieval Scandinavian, where HF are also mixed with MF missile troops. So what do these count as?

Sounds like some clarification is needed, Mr Shaw...

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Re: More Mixed Battlegroup Shenanigans

Post by petedalby » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:35 am

Sounds like some clarification is needed, Mr Shaw...
I think the only point that is potentially unclear is the effect of terrain on the LB bases. Disorder is by base so I would presume the LB are not affected by uneven or rough as per the rules since this is not mentioned on page 112 of the army list special rule. And this would be consistent with the treatment of other mixed BGs.

The question of CTs is covered on page 114 of the rules - mixed BGs of MF & HF test as is HF.

But yes - a word from Terry would do the trick.
Pete

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Re: More Mixed Battlegroup Shenanigans

Post by dave_r » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:28 pm

petedalby wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:35 am
Sounds like some clarification is needed, Mr Shaw...
I think the only point that is potentially unclear is the effect of terrain on the LB bases. Disorder is by base so I would presume the LB are not affected by uneven or rough as per the rules since this is not mentioned on page 112 of the army list special rule. And this would be consistent with the treatment of other mixed BGs.

The question of CTs is covered on page 114 of the rules - mixed BGs of MF & HF test as is HF.

But yes - a word from Terry would do the trick.
Actually, this is covered on page 37:

"Battle groups smoving through more than one type of terrain are limited to the shortest move distance shown for any of those terrain types. Battle groups with mixed troop types use the shortest move distance that would apply to any base in the battle group, even if that base is clear of the terrain. e.g. heavy foot backed by a rank of light foot move at 2 MU in rough terrain, even if on the rear rank of light foot is in the rough terrain"

So this point is covered in the rules. I can only assume Terry was having the afternoon off and somebody competent wrote this bit.
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Re: More Mixed Battlegroup Shenanigans

Post by terrys » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:56 am

So this point is covered in the rules. I can only assume Terry was having the afternoon off and somebody competent wrote this bit.
Thanks Dave - Always happy to have your support.

The replies so far have been correct in that the MF bases when in rough terrain do not count as disordered (or severely disordered in difficult). Dave is also correct that the whole BG moves at the HF rate for the terrain - even if only the MF bases are in it. This also means that they also can only move their 4MU rate if ALL of the bases are in the open (along with the other restrictions).
When taking a CT they always count as HF unless both HF bases have been removed (and so do not get a -1 for losing against mounted or HF in the open).

i.e. They are treated the same as any other mixed MF/HF BG except for the following:
> If charged when they have MF longbow in the front rank, mounted opponents do not get the +POA for fighting MF in the open. Other BGs of mixed MF/HF (including Scandinavians) do NOT get this bonus.

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Re: More Mixed Battlegroup Shenanigans

Post by ChrisTofalos » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:18 pm

Other BGs of mixed MF/HF (including Scandinavians) do NOT get this bonus.
Does this mean Scandinavian mixed HF/MF get a minus for fighting HF in the open if they lose a HF front rank base and the gap is filled with a MF base? If so, is this effect immediate (as with 25% losses)?

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Re: More Mixed Battlegroup Shenanigans

Post by petedalby » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:32 pm

Does this mean Scandinavian mixed HF/MF get a minus for fighting HF in the open if they lose a HF front rank base and the gap is filled with a MF base? If so, is this effect immediate (as with 25% losses)?
I think you may be confusing 2 distinct issues Chris.

Page 114 of the rules - mixed HF & MG BGs test as is entirely HF. This is quite clear So your question above is answered.

The point Terry made:
i.e. They are treated the same as any other mixed MF/HF BG except for the following:
> If charged when they have MF longbow in the front rank, mounted opponents do not get the +POA for fighting MF in the open. Other BGs of mixed MF/HF (including Scandinavians) do NOT get this bonus.
Relates to combat factors - not cohesion test. So if the Scandinavians had say 3 HF and 1 MF base in the front rank and were charged by enemy mounted, 1 of the mounted bases would get an additional POA vs the MF - assuming they are in the open.
Pete

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Re: More Mixed Battlegroup Shenanigans

Post by petedalby » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:39 pm

Battle groups smoving through more than one type of terrain
Is this a new type of special manoeuvre?
Pete

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Re: More Mixed Battlegroup Shenanigans

Post by ChrisTofalos » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:49 pm

.So if the Scandinavians had say 3 HF and 1 MF base in the front rank and were charged by enemy mounted, 1 of the mounted bases would get an additional POA vs the MF - assuming they are in the open
So, presumably, this would apply to melee as well with, in the case of Scandinavians, opponents facing an armoured swordsman instead of one with polearm? (Likely to be a much more common occurrence than at impact)

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Re: More Mixed Battlegroup Shenanigans

Post by ChrisTofalos » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:41 pm

I think we were both stating the obvious in the last couple of posts, Pete. Of course, Scandinavian MF in the open suffer a combat penalty against mounted in the open and count as swordsmen in melee.

What seems to be have been decided is that they count as HF in all circumstances, except when moving through terrain which would disorder HF, but suffer no CT penalty at all if losing to HF in the open.

Isn't this a bit loaded in favour of Scandinavians? An 8-base unit can fight very well against anything in the open, when losing a base it suffers no adverse morale effect for MF v HF, and can enter disordering terrain whilst losing only one dice in combat...

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Re: More Mixed Battlegroup Shenanigans

Post by petedalby » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:54 am

So, presumably, this would apply to melee as well with, in the case of Scandinavians, opponents facing an armoured swordsman instead of one with polearm? (Likely to be a much more common occurrence than at impact
Yes - combat is always by file.
What seems to be have been decided is that they count as HF in all circumstances, except when moving through terrain which would disorder HF, but suffer no CT penalty at all if losing to HF in the open.
The rules on mixed BGs have been unchanged since V1. This is nothing new. The only new concept is the combined men at arms / LB BGs which hopefully has now been fully explored and explained.
Pete

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