Charge cavalry too weak

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
leonardus68
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Charge cavalry too weak

Post by leonardus68 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:19 am

Hello,
I believe cavalry charging, that means CHARGE or an attack from many hexes distance is too weak against all kind of opponents. Especially the heavy one. Historically, unless you have a good cavalry repellent unit as pikes/spears, a charge from a heavy cavalry will devastate your force on spot. And a quick question: where is the 1.5.6 patch notes ?

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Re: Charge cavalry too weak

Post by rbodleyscott » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:24 am

leonardus68 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:19 am
Hello,
I believe cavalry charging, that means CHARGE or an attack from many hexes distance is too weak against all kind of opponents. Especially the heavy one. Historically, unless you have a good cavalry repellent unit as pikes/spears, a charge from a heavy cavalry will devastate your force on spot.
Although that may be how they are represented in some other games, based on a rather 19th century view of military history, promulgated by Sir Charles Oman and others, it is not in fact borne out by the historical evidence for the Ancient period. Cavalry were generally used to flank/rear charge enemy infantry, not ride them down frontally.

The success of the Seleucid cataphracts on their right wing at Magnesia was exceptional - on other occasions heavy lancer cavalry charges were successfully repelled by legions. e.g. Arrian's "Order of Battle against the Alans" shows how the Romans, armed with pila and other javelins, expected to repel the charge of the heavy Alan lancers.
And a quick question: where is the 1.5.6 patch notes ?
You should be able to see them by clicking on the Patch Notes button in the launcher.
Richard Bodley Scott

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lapdog666
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Re: Charge cavalry too weak

Post by lapdog666 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:38 pm

1.5.6? isnt 1.5.3 the latest patch

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Re: Charge cavalry too weak

Post by rbodleyscott » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:01 pm

lapdog666 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:38 pm
1.5.6? isnt 1.5.3 the latest patch
It is. 1.5.6 is a beta which is currently being used by FOG Empires beta testers who are not also enrolled in the FOG2 5th DLC beta. (The FOG2 5th DLC beta testers are now up to v1.5.7 - which did not contain any changes to the Empires linkup).
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Re: Charge cavalry too weak

Post by melm » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:09 pm

Sir Charles OMEN😃Just finished his book days ago.

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Re: Charge cavalry too weak

Post by rbodleyscott » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:22 pm

melm wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:09 pm
Sir Charles OMEN😃Just finished his book days ago.
His books are great as an introduction, but he has a rather 19th century take on tactical supremacy.
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Re: Charge cavalry too weak

Post by MVP7 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:13 pm

Chock cavalry would have little chances of success if charging a solid formation of steady infantry. Something I find a bit suspicious though, is how well 'raw' spearmen (and other infantry) hold against such charges in FoG2.

I would think that raw units would lack a lot of the confidence and cohesion needed to hold firm against cavalry change and during the following melee. Raw infantry is currently so efficient in fighting against cavalry that raw spearmen are often used successfully to cover flanks from enemy cavalry which is something I can't recall from any historical battles. If anything, there are lot of examples where cavalry would have to protect infantry from enemy cavalry.

It's a tricky issue since raw unit efficiency against other infantry is fine and any changes to weapon types would also effect average and better units which I think are fine as they are. Maybe raw infantry could have some sort of additional cohesion penalties vs cavalry?

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Re: Charge cavalry too weak

Post by rbodleyscott » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:25 pm

MVP7 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:13 pm
Chock cavalry would have little chances of success if charging a solid formation of steady infantry. Something I find a bit suspicious though, is how well 'raw' spearmen (and other infantry) hold against such charges in FoG2.

I would think that raw units would lack a lot of the confidence and cohesion needed to hold firm against cavalry change and during the following melee. Raw infantry is currently so efficient in fighting against cavalry that raw spearmen are often used successfully to cover flanks from enemy cavalry which is something I can't recall from any historical battles. If anything, there are lot of examples where cavalry would have to protect infantry from enemy cavalry.

It's a tricky issue since raw unit efficiency against other infantry is fine and any changes to weapon types would also effect average and better units which I think are fine as they are. Maybe raw infantry could have some sort of additional cohesion penalties vs cavalry?
Yes, that is a thought. Or even an extra POA penalty.
Richard Bodley Scott

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Re: Charge cavalry too weak

Post by MVP7 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:31 pm

If POA penalty for raw vs cavalry in the open could be implemented that would be ideal I think.

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Re: Charge cavalry too weak

Post by lapdog666 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:39 pm

MVP7 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:31 pm
If POA penalty for raw vs cavalry in the open could be implemented that would be ideal I think.
that could be interesting

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Re: Charge cavalry too weak

Post by leonardus68 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:08 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:24 am
leonardus68 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:19 am
Hello,
I believe cavalry charging, that means CHARGE or an attack from many hexes distance is too weak against all kind of opponents. Especially the heavy one. Historically, unless you have a good cavalry repellent unit as pikes/spears, a charge from a heavy cavalry will devastate your force on spot.
Although that may be how they are represented in some other games, based on a rather 19th century view of military history, promulgated by Sir Charles Oman and others, it is not in fact borne out by the historical evidence for the Ancient period. Cavalry were generally used to flank/rear charge enemy infantry, not ride them down frontally.

The success of the Seleucid cataphracts on their right wing at Magnesia was exceptional - on other occasions heavy lancer cavalry charges were successfully repelled by legions. e.g. Arrian's "Order of Battle against the Alans" shows how the Romans, armed with pila and other javelins, expected to repel the charge of the heavy Alan lancers.
And a quick question: where is the 1.5.6 patch notes ?
You should be able to see them by clicking on the Patch Notes button in the launcher.
This is because real heavy cavalry in ancient times was scarce. But, when charging 250 cavalry towards 450 sword regular infantry I assure you this will not result in 20 casualties amongst. Besides history I am in a rennactement of ancient battle group and I again assure you I know what I talking about. A 500 kg mass on a 50 km/h speed will cut the infantry rows till the 6 or 7 row.....only by kinetic energy, unless proper anticavalry unit is taken into account. Game seems very lacking here.
Last edited by leonardus68 on Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

leonardus68
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Re: Charge cavalry too weak

Post by leonardus68 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:10 pm

MVP7 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:13 pm
Chock cavalry would have little chances of success if charging a solid formation of steady infantry.
You're totally wrong.

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Re: Charge cavalry too weak

Post by MVP7 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:33 pm

leonardus68 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:08 pm
This is because real heavy cavalry in ancient times was scarce. But, when charging 250 cavalry towards 450 sword regular infantry I assure you this will not result in 20 casualties amongst. Besides history I am in a rennactement of ancient battle group and I again assure you I know what I talking about. A 500 kg mass on a 50 km/h speed will cut the infantry rows till the 6 or 7 row.....only by kinetic energy, unless proper anticavalry unit is taken into account. Game seems very lacking here.
Unless you were actively skewering the horses with braced spears and riding them into shoulder-to-shoulder packed mass of infantry, I'm a bit skeptical about directly equating larping to historical events.

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Re: Charge cavalry too weak

Post by leonardus68 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:41 pm

MVP7 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:33 pm
leonardus68 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:08 pm
This is because real heavy cavalry in ancient times was scarce. But, when charging 250 cavalry towards 450 sword regular infantry I assure you this will not result in 20 casualties amongst. Besides history I am in a rennactement of ancient battle group and I again assure you I know what I talking about. A 500 kg mass on a 50 km/h speed will cut the infantry rows till the 6 or 7 row.....only by kinetic energy, unless proper anticavalry unit is taken into account. Game seems very lacking here.
Unless you were actively skewering the horses with braced spears and riding them into shoulder-to-shoulder packed mass of infantry, I'm a bit skeptical about directly equating larping to historical events.
Do you read what I was saying ? ''unless proper anticavalry unit is taken into account''. Spears/pikes are in this spectrum. Not swords for example. And you can squeeze 'shoulder to shoulder' soldiers even with the hydraulic press, an 1.250.000 Joules will crack like butter you're mass infantry...

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Re: Charge cavalry too weak

Post by MVP7 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:59 pm

leonardus68 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:41 pm
MVP7 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:33 pm
leonardus68 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:08 pm
This is because real heavy cavalry in ancient times was scarce. But, when charging 250 cavalry towards 450 sword regular infantry I assure you this will not result in 20 casualties amongst. Besides history I am in a rennactement of ancient battle group and I again assure you I know what I talking about. A 500 kg mass on a 50 km/h speed will cut the infantry rows till the 6 or 7 row.....only by kinetic energy, unless proper anticavalry unit is taken into account. Game seems very lacking here.
Unless you were actively skewering the horses with braced spears and riding them into shoulder-to-shoulder packed mass of infantry, I'm a bit skeptical about directly equating larping to historical events.
Do you read what I was saying ? ''unless proper anticavalry unit is taken into account''. Spears/pikes are in this spectrum. Not swords for example. And you can squeeze 'shoulder to shoulder' soldiers even with the hydraulic press, an 1.250.000 Joules will crack like butter you're mass infantry...
In general non-heavy and non-spearmen/pike units have a lot harder time against cavalry charges in FoG2. Romans might be an exception but they also historically did well against chock cavalry on many occasions while defying the otherwise almost universal trend of capable heavy-infantry armies using spears/pikes/pole-arms as their primary melee weapon.

Also consider the effect of Napoleonic era square: It was pretty much invulnerable against cavalry as long as it remained firm but as soon as the formation started fracturing the infantry would often panic and get slaughtered. Musket with a bayonet attached is roughly equal to 1.8 to 2 meters long spear yet the Napoleonic cavalry did not physically ram into the formation but harassed it until the cohesion was lost to panic or the cavalry driven away.

Given the performance of Romans and Napoleonic square formation (and there being no historical contemporary separation between anti-infantry infantry and anti-cavalry infantry) it seems logical that the most important factor when facing cavalry charge was not choice of weapons but maintaining solid formation (which is a natural part of FoG2 distinction of 'heavy infantry').
Last edited by MVP7 on Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Charge cavalry too weak

Post by rbodleyscott » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:01 pm

leonardus68 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:41 pm
Do you read what I was saying ? ''unless proper anticavalry unit is taken into account''. Spears/pikes are in this spectrum. Not swords for example.
Very few ancient non-light infantry were only armed with swords. Of those who were not armed with long spears or pikes, the vast majority of the remainder were armed with shorter spears that could be thrown against infantry, but also grounded against cavalry - we know from Ancient accounts that they did this. This includes all troops rated as "Light Spear, Swordsmen" and the vast majority of those rated as "Impact Foot, Swordsmen".

That a formation so comprised could stand up to a charge of heavy cavalry lancers is indicated (a) by Arrian's Order of Battle against the Alans, and (b) by the lack of accounts of Roman armies being ridden down by Sarmatian, Parthian or Sassanid armoured lancers.

Sure, this equipment was not as good against cavalry as pikes or long spears, but it was good enough to do the job most of the time. This difference in effectiveness vs cavalry is reflected in the game.
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Re: Charge cavalry too weak

Post by rbodleyscott » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:07 pm

MVP7 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:59 pm
Given the performance of Romans and Napoleonic square formation (and there being no historical contemporary separation between anti-infantry infantry and anti-cavalry infantry) it seems logical that the most important factor when facing cavalry charge was not choice of weapons but maintaining solid formation (which is a natural part of FoG2 distinction of 'heavy infantry').
And which is something that reenactions cannot really replicate owing to the relatively low number of participants involved.
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Re: Charge cavalry too weak

Post by TheGrayMouser » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:36 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:25 pm
MVP7 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:13 pm
Chock cavalry would have little chances of success if charging a solid formation of steady infantry. Something I find a bit suspicious though, is how well 'raw' spearmen (and other infantry) hold against such charges in FoG2.

I would think that raw units would lack a lot of the confidence and cohesion needed to hold firm against cavalry change and during the following melee. Raw infantry is currently so efficient in fighting against cavalry that raw spearmen are often used successfully to cover flanks from enemy cavalry which is something I can't recall from any historical battles. If anything, there are lot of examples where cavalry would have to protect infantry from enemy cavalry.

It's a tricky issue since raw unit efficiency against other infantry is fine and any changes to weapon types would also effect average and better units which I think are fine as they are. Maybe raw infantry could have some sort of additional cohesion penalties vs cavalry?
Yes, that is a thought. Or even an extra POA penalty.
I'd rather see non shock infantry take a cohesion test when charged by lancers ( fail, drop a level and then impact hehe) but some might deem that too much... I do get agrieved when my expensive lancers bounce off or fail to damage the light spear types.

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Re: Charge cavalry too weak

Post by MVP7 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:47 pm

TheGrayMouser wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:36 pm
rbodleyscott wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:25 pm
Yes, that is a thought. Or even an extra POA penalty.
I'd rather see non shock infantry take a cohesion test when charged by lancers ( fail, drop a level and then impact hehe) but some might deem that too much... I do get agrieved when my expensive lancers bounce off or fail to damage the light spear types.
Not sure what you mean shock infantry but cohesion test before impact could be one option. However, It would be rather inconsistent with how the rest of the game works and from top-down design view, the same outcome can be achieved with just the POA penalty.

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Re: Charge cavalry too weak

Post by TheGrayMouser » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:59 pm

MVP7 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:47 pm
TheGrayMouser wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:36 pm
rbodleyscott wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:25 pm
Yes, that is a thought. Or even an extra POA penalty.
I'd rather see non shock infantry take a cohesion test when charged by lancers ( fail, drop a level and then impact hehe) but some might deem that too much... I do get agrieved when my expensive lancers bounce off or fail to damage the light spear types.
Not sure what you mean shock infantry but cohesion test before impact could be one option. However, It would be rather inconsistent with how the rest of the game works and from top-down design view, the same outcome can be achieved with just the POA penalty.
It would mean pikes, offensive spears, and impact infantry would be exempted.

I think it would fit in fine, after all currently ANY fragged unit charged has to pass a cohesion test or it routs prior to contact. Changing a weapons poa’s based on quality is more of a paradigm shift.

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