Does simulating history matter in OOB?

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krakoburger
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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by krakoburger » Wed May 01, 2019 3:31 pm

I guess this subject is interesting to people. I had this thought regard scale: using Someri as an example, any artillery on the island should be able to target any other hex because the distances are so small. On the other hand, during the climactic Battle of Tali-Ihantala the Finnish use of artillery was decisive in avoiding a catastrophic defeat. Without some scaling - in both of these scenarios the aritllery's affects are unchanged - it might be fun but it doesn't allow a person interested in the history as well as the game, to appropriately explore the subject.
Yes, OOB is lots of fun, many of the scenarios are very well balanced, but I still feel that the game slights itself by not giving a bit more historical context.

terminator
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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by terminator » Wed May 01, 2019 3:58 pm

krakoburger wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 3:31 pm
I guess this subject is interesting to people. I had this thought regard scale: using Someri as an example, any artillery on the island should be able to target any other hex because the distances are so small. On the other hand, during the climactic Battle of Tali-Ihantala the Finnish use of artillery was decisive in avoiding a catastrophic defeat. Without some scaling - in both of these scenarios the aritllery's affects are unchanged - it might be fun but it doesn't allow a person interested in the history as well as the game, to appropriately explore the subject.
Yes, OOB is lots of fun, many of the scenarios are very well balanced, but I still feel that the game slights itself by not giving a bit more historical context.
Maybe if the scenarios were more "historical", they would be less well balanced and therefore less fun ?

kondi754
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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by kondi754 » Wed May 01, 2019 4:38 pm

I think the only way out is to standardize the maps.
Let's establish that 1 hex = 3km (1.864 m) and create such maps only.
Of course, scenarios like Someri have to be removed from the game completely :)
I also think that due to this devs would have to skip the PTO in the game :wink:

I think that there is no chance to apply different rules for large and small maps.
It's technically impossible there were several "units.csv" files in the game folder and (additionally) were alternatively applied to the selected map...

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by R_TEAM » Wed May 01, 2019 6:44 pm

I say not all "musst" have the same size (the size the game rules and values designed for ...)
But at last the officiell scenarios should have all the "right" size - and custom scenarious can be marked as "Different Size = x KM Hex" .. so the player where like to stay on the more accurat simulation side can this - and the players where dont care so much over this, can use the scenario where make fun for him ...
But ATM it is a confusing "mix" ....

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by R_TEAM » Wed May 01, 2019 7:00 pm

terminator wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 3:58 pm
krakoburger wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 3:31 pm
I guess this subject is interesting to people. I had this thought regard scale: using Someri as an example, any artillery on the island should be able to target any other hex because the distances are so small. On the other hand, during the climactic Battle of Tali-Ihantala the Finnish use of artillery was decisive in avoiding a catastrophic defeat. Without some scaling - in both of these scenarios the aritllery's affects are unchanged - it might be fun but it doesn't allow a person interested in the history as well as the game, to appropriately explore the subject.
Yes, OOB is lots of fun, many of the scenarios are very well balanced, but I still feel that the game slights itself by not giving a bit more historical context.
Maybe if the scenarios were more "historical", they would be less well balanced and therefore less fun ?
This is for strategic fans the wrong thinking ..
If you think this to end . the full game is pointless - as the german have (as we all know..) loos the war .... end.
But this games should simulating the "reality" - but not in an hardrailed way (hope i have get the right word ;) )
You start maybe as Rommel in Tobruk and "you" know it was not the best time for germans here ..
But you are now on the command, and you can change the outcome - maybe only a little ... maybe much
This includes very hard scenarios (as it was in reality...) where "winning" would be an miracle ...
(as example - in the Campaign Series screenshot from me, you see my actual game - Arab-Isreali war ... you know the result - i am the Arab side ........... i realy dont expect to win this ... but make it hard as hell for the isrealis :D .... an player who is most important "the winning" should pick the Isreali side then .....)
But this is pointless if the simulation is not accurat - then i dont know "if" i make this decisions, if the outcome is the same as in reality in WW2 ... or looks it only cool and funny ...

Regards

krakoburger
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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by krakoburger » Wed May 01, 2019 7:48 pm

I own a bunch of board wargames my fellow gamers and I called "beer and pretzel" games. They are fun to play, easy to learn but not simple, and highly competitive for matched players. They offered and offer a wide enough range of problems and possible outcomes that they got a lot of replay. Historically, we all knew who won the battles, but the victory conditions for the players balanced historicity with competitive play. Perhaps Napoleon drove his opponent from the field so for the French player, that was full victory, and for the Allied player it might be holding the French to a somewhat limited level of success. OOB is a beer and pretzel game: it's fun, complex enough to require some study and concentration when playing and some of the scenarios I've played so far are worth replaying several times. Ideally, I'd love to have more details on what the designer intended for each scenario, and as I mentioned in the artillery problem, a tad more realism based on scale. Since I read and study military history in part to become a better tabletop officer, I can't help but look at the games from that perspective. Some of those beer and pretzel games would include some of SSI's quad games such as the Napoleonic Battles, the first Modern Battles Quad, Panzergruppe Guderian, just to name a few.

terminator
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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by terminator » Thu May 02, 2019 7:29 am

kondi754 wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 4:38 pm
I think the only way out is to standardize the maps.
Let's establish that 1 hex = 3km (1.864 m) and create such maps only.
Of course, scenarios like Someri have to be removed from the game completely :)
I also think that due to this devs would have to skip the PTO in the game :wink:
Why skip Someri scenario, it is historical and fun to play ? This scenario seems to have pleased other players.
Why skip the PTO in the game ?

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by kondi754 » Thu May 02, 2019 9:20 am

terminator wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:29 am
kondi754 wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 4:38 pm
I think the only way out is to standardize the maps.
Let's establish that 1 hex = 3km (1.864 m) and create such maps only.
Of course, scenarios like Someri have to be removed from the game completely :)
I also think that due to this devs would have to skip the PTO in the game :wink:
Why skip Someri scenario, it is historical and fun to play ? This scenario seems to have pleased other players.
Why skip the PTO in the game ?
Because OoB is designed for battles on an operational scale (army group, army, corps) but not tactical (regiment, brigade, division)
Scenarios which have places on the islands, eg Someri or Tarawa atoll is tactical scale game or we can even say that it's battlefield tactical game (platoon, company, battalion)
The "unit.csv" file suggests that all unit rates (e.g. artillery) are adapted to corps or army level operations.
The best example is the range of artillery fire - average 3-4 hexes, and the average range of field artillery fire was about 10-13 km during the Second World War

I really like Unity of Command because it is absolutely countable and logical, all maps and units are on the appropriate scale.
That's why there will never be PTO in UoC. :wink:

terminator
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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by terminator » Thu May 02, 2019 9:57 am

kondi754 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:20 am
That's why there will never be PTO in UoC. :wink:
I'm not sure If I understood correctly, what do you mean by "PTO" ?

kondi754
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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by kondi754 » Thu May 02, 2019 10:13 am

Pacific Theater of Operations

also:
ETO - European Theater of Operations
MTO - Mediterranean Theater of Operations

WarHomer
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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by WarHomer » Thu May 02, 2019 10:43 am

I want fun and interesting campaigns with "what if"-opportunities. Otherwise I´d rather read a history book by Beevor, Hatings or another qualified author.

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by R_TEAM » Thu May 02, 2019 11:08 am

But the "what if" only matters have the outcome an realistic value ...
If it only an unacurat simulation - then the outcome maybe is at your liking - but nothing that would happen in real ... so (for me) pointless ...

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by PoorOldSpike » Thu May 02, 2019 12:23 pm

The problem with rigidly-fixed historical games is that they tend to always play the same every time you play them (yawn)..

But with OOB and other computer games you can throw in a random element to guarantee they''ll be different every time you crank them up..:)
For example I'm an Editor nut and like to have fun making my own fully-randomized scenarios like this semi-historical 'AI Jap Attack' one I made, this is how it looks at the start, the AI Japs will be attacking from the north against my Brits-

Image


Below: BUT, I've randomized most of the units on both sides so that the units will be DIFFERENT every time I play and will be like a box of chocolates, I'll never know what the Brits and Japs are going to get..:)
This is a small part of the editor's 'random trigger screen' which I set up, for example the Japs will get either Ha-Go tanks or beefier Type 97's; and will also get either standard infantry or heavy infantry.
Same randomness applies to AA guns, AT guns and artillery random triggers-
Image


WAIT I've not finished yet, because during the game I'm free to purchase anything I please from the screens below because I'm not restricted to historical units only..:)
Image

Below:Jap Type 97 and crewman, Saipan.
So how was your day Tojo?
Image
http://www.mission4today.com/index.php? ... orum&f=134

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by R_TEAM » Thu May 02, 2019 1:22 pm

This are 2 different things ....
If you play an spcific battle - then the start positions and army size and units musst be the same as in the historical battle ... but this dont mean the outcome is every play the same - but you are right - it "cant" full differ, as the terrain, start values are always the same ...
The other is an random szenario - one thing OoB have sadly not inbuild ... in CampaignSeries i can set an date, an terrain and an army size, and can set my own force (in logical borders of real existed organizations ..) from an pool and get variable map put up settings - in an zone of my side or random araiving in edge hexes from my side (most street hexes) ... and so one ...

But by both things - the important is the real behavor of the units ... if the units behavor non realistic, then it is not an "what if" scenario - but an full fictional battle with no real counterpart in real world wars .... i say not an player cant like this ... (command and conquer was an full fictional battle and fun ..) - but this is "for me" not the deffinition of an "good" wargame from WW2 ...

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by PoorOldSpike » Thu May 02, 2019 2:44 pm

If there's something about a scenario we don't like, we can feed it into the editor to change it, or simply build our own scenario from scratch..:)
For example here are 3 more screens from my 'AI Jap Attack' scenario.

In this first pic in the Editor, I've given my 18 frontline Jap units 'Seek and Destroy' orders at Aggression level 65, (I tried maximum agg level 100 but that made them too suicidal)
Image


And in this second pic I've given my Brits an income of 24 points per turn, which can be increased / decreased later to get a good gameplay balance, ie if the Japs are giving me a hard time I can increase my points to 30 or whatever, and vice-versa-
Image


And in this pic 3 notice how we can set whatever date we like to restrict ourselves to units of that timeframe, because unit strengths etc change historically from year to year.
As regards Weather settings, I know that all units can skate across frozen rivers in winter, but I haven't dabbled with the other weather settings yet.
Question for OOB experts- are most other weather types purely cosmetic, or do they have any effect on gameplay?
Image

krakoburger
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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by krakoburger » Fri May 03, 2019 1:31 am

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:23 pm
The problem with rigidly-fixed historical games is that they tend to always play the same every time you play them (yawn).."

I disagree with this statement completely. There is no doubt in my mind that the creators of OOB mean for them to be historical and reasonably accurate, regardless of their flaws. But no game eveyr plays the same every time. If that was the case, nobody would study chess, which is an reasonable simulation of war at the time of its creation. Give two players a group of units, terrain, a set of rules of engagement, and they can play a seemingly limitless number of variations.

And one advantage of a game where the limits of his/her own side are clear to the player, and the availability of limited intelligence of the other side, is that the opponents get to know each other the way Grant got to know Lee, Montgomery, Rommell, etc. The quality of historical simulation in the game is not the same as reading a history, and it's not the same as being in the trenches, but it should give the player some insight into what did happen as well as what could have happened.

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by bru888 » Fri May 03, 2019 1:57 am

I'm with Warhomer and Spike. I want a game that is based on history and does not wander to far away from it but on the other hand, I want a game and I don't care if the topic at hand involves a map the size of Ukraine or Someri.

To their credit, the various DLC designers have been ingenious in coming up with ways to win scenarios and campaigns in actual lost causes and vice versa: ways to lose when your side actually won in real life. A less dramatic victory than really happened, say.

And I repeat: Many of these events were unknown to me and I have been a history buff for all of my adult life. OOB has stimulated my interest in so many aspects of WWII.

It's a curious thing. The DLC has been great; the game itself not so much at times. 7.14/7.16 was a big step forward in quality, enough to keep my interest and involvement for now.
- Bru

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by kondi754 » Fri May 03, 2019 8:37 am

I wrote only what would have to be done to make OoB consistent with realities and above all more logical, but I don't have great illusions that such changes will be introduced.
For me, the game doesn't matter, because I modify it for myself
I think everyone noticed that I stopped submitting my proposals and writing here at all. It's a waste of time, you'd better do it all yourself.
I'm disgusted that the Devs have castrated an "unreliable" trait without any consultation with experienced players, but only on the basis of the voices of some random players.
This is not my game anymore and do whatever you want with this
Greetings

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by Andy2012 » Fri May 03, 2019 9:38 am

kondi754 wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 8:37 am
I wrote only what would have to be done to make OoB consistent with realities and above all more logical, but I don't have great illusions that such changes will be introduced.
For me, the game doesn't matter, because I modify it for myself
I think everyone noticed that I stopped submitting my proposals and writing here at all. It's a waste of time, you'd better do it all yourself.
I'm disgusted that the Devs have castrated an "unreliable" trait without any consultation with experienced players, but only on the basis of the voices of some random players.
This is not my game anymore and do whatever you want with this
Greetings
We all value your input. But you are not the average player and if your skill level and dedication would be a requirement to play and win, OoB wouldnt sell.
And dont take all this too personal, this is a game and a hobby for all of us. Summer is coming up. :D

kondi754
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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by kondi754 » Fri May 03, 2019 9:46 am

Ok Andy, you're probably right, but I felt hurt
Summer is coming... :)

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