Why have my Spartan phalanxes deteriorated in quality

Field of Glory: Empires is a grand strategy game in which you will have to move in an intricate and living tapestry of nations and tribes, each one with their distinctive culture.
Set in Europe and in the Mediterranean Area during the Classical Age, experience what truly means to manage an Empire.

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antiochosvii
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Why have my Spartan phalanxes deteriorated in quality

Post by antiochosvii » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:32 pm

I fought the Aetolians and imported to FOG2, and they were above average as they should be. I didn't really take bad casualties. In my second battle against Aetolia, I import and suddenly they're just average. Why is this? They have more experience than before, not less!

Is it a bug? I don't really understand how quality is allocated.

devoncop
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Re: Why have my Spartan phalanxes deteriorated in quality

Post by devoncop » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:40 pm

You have lost experienced troops in the battle which have been replaced by raw recruits to keep them at full strength.

Hence the average quality has degraded.

antiochosvii
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Re: Why have my Spartan phalanxes deteriorated in quality

Post by antiochosvii » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:42 pm

But only one of my phalanxes took damage at all. The others COMPLETELY rolled the enemy. That doesn't make any sense. They're all down to average.

That seems like a bad calculation. If that's the way they're gonna fight, my soldiers will never gain any experience at all. I mean... it was a total rout.

That's kind of a bummer. I had hoped for better from FOG Empires -- I want the Field of Glory feel of gradually getting a more experienced army.

How am I supposed to gain veterans? I only had 7 percent casualties.

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Re: Why have my Spartan phalanxes deteriorated in quality

Post by rhewett01 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:04 pm

Any change in leadership? The quality of troops in an army is adjusted to reflect the skill levels of the commander (since FOG2 doesn't model differing commander capabilities). Hence the same unit can have a lower quality when exported to a FOG2 battle if serving under has a lesser army commander.

antiochosvii
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Re: Why have my Spartan phalanxes deteriorated in quality

Post by antiochosvii » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:15 pm

Nope. Same one, and he has good offensive skill. It just seems bad to me -- I just bought the game, and it de-incentivizes me from playing knowing that my military isn't going to get better. I had hoped to play, say, Achaia and watch as my mediocre thureophoroi become hard-bitten veterans -- it is a huge part of why I like these kinds of games.

I'm somewhat disheartened. Not enough to refund yet but it has taken the wind out of my sails. Imperator left me empty, and I was hoping this would fill the hole.

devoncop
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Re: Why have my Spartan phalanxes deteriorated in quality

Post by devoncop » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:52 pm

antiochosvii wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:15 pm
Nope. Same one, and he has good offensive skill. It just seems bad to me -- I just bought the game, and it de-incentivizes me from playing knowing that my military isn't going to get better. I had hoped to play, say, Achaia and watch as my mediocre thureophoroi become hard-bitten veterans -- it is a huge part of why I like these kinds of games.

I'm somewhat disheartened. Not enough to refund yet but it has taken the wind out of my sails. Imperator left me empty, and I was hoping this would fill the hole.
I can assure you troop quality improves . I am fighting as Dacia and have units that have progressed to veteran and even Elite status through successful campaigns.

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Re: Why have my Spartan phalanxes deteriorated in quality

Post by springel » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:05 am

How were the units changed in the Empires stats during the first battle.

The troop quality in FoG2 is derived, so your complaints would probably be caused by data on the Empires side.

antiochosvii
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Re: Why have my Spartan phalanxes deteriorated in quality

Post by antiochosvii » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:03 am

Okay so after further playing I think I have figured it out. Attacking an enemy in their home region massively decreases your troop quality. I guess this represents home field morale advantage, which certainly was a very real factor in ancient combat.

However, I think that's poorly implemented. It should make their troops better, not yours worse. My archers should not be doing less damage because they're in an enemy capital. Rather, their warriors should be tougher.

Kind of frustrating, but it's possible to overcome for now. Going forward...it should definitely be changed.

Paul59
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Re: Why have my Spartan phalanxes deteriorated in quality

Post by Paul59 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:01 am

antiochosvii wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:03 am
Okay so after further playing I think I have figured it out. Attacking an enemy in their home region massively decreases your troop quality. I guess this represents home field morale advantage, which certainly was a very real factor in ancient combat.

However, I think that's poorly implemented. It should make their troops better, not yours worse. My archers should not be doing less damage because they're in an enemy capital. Rather, their warriors should be tougher.

Kind of frustrating, but it's possible to overcome for now. Going forward...it should definitely be changed.
Hi Antiochus,

I might be totally wrong, but I suspect there are other factors that feed into the FOG2 converted unit quality. As well as General quality or lack of General, and experience; fatigue, effectiveness, supply all might be a factor. I am certain that a newly appointed general has a temporary negative impact on Empires unit combat power, and that probably factors into the FOG2 unit quality as well.

I really don't think home advantage comes into it at all though, I have never heard that mentioned throughout the six months of my beta testing.

Perhaps the devs can give a definitive answer?

Another possibility worth checking is if you have inadvertently set your FOG2 difficulty rating to Deity. That is the only FOG2 difficulty setting that effects the players converted unit quality negatively. Similarly Centurion would slightly boost the players units and decrease the quality of the AI units.

cheers

Paul
Last edited by Paul59 on Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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rico21
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Re: Why have my Spartan phalanxes deteriorated in quality

Post by rico21 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:14 am

After one fight, your army is tired, so the next turn your units are weak.

loki100
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Re: Why have my Spartan phalanxes deteriorated in quality

Post by loki100 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:18 am

antiochosvii wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:15 pm
Nope. Same one, and he has good offensive skill. It just seems bad to me -- I just bought the game, and it de-incentivizes me from playing knowing that my military isn't going to get better. I had hoped to play, say, Achaia and watch as my mediocre thureophoroi become hard-bitten veterans -- it is a huge part of why I like these kinds of games.

I'm somewhat disheartened. Not enough to refund yet but it has taken the wind out of my sails. Imperator left me empty, and I was hoping this would fill the hole.

Your troop quality is adjusted to reflect:

having a less competent general, even a 1 pt difference means you can have an army that has a lot of below average morale in FoG2
if your units have had lost effectiveness then that is modelled by a morale drop
if your units are in poor supply that is modelled by a morale drop
experience pts from Empires are modelled by the morale assigned in FoG2
fatigue is modelled by altering morale

if you units have missing hit points, this is modelled by combining the units into full strength FoG2 units - so you get less (I believe this is so that pike phalanxes operate as intended)

In effect the rules in 11.2.2 of the manual

Pocus
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Re: Why have my Spartan phalanxes deteriorated in quality

Post by Pocus » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:33 pm

There is no 'home bonus' also.
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Kaede11
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Re: Why have my Spartan phalanxes deteriorated in quality

Post by Kaede11 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:07 pm

I think the devs should be less opaque about how Empires converts to FOG2.

In my experience, which might be wrong, I feel that troop quality is "relative". If the same army fights against a worse general, it has better quality. If then they fight against a better general than your own, they have less quality.

loki100
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Re: Why have my Spartan phalanxes deteriorated in quality

Post by loki100 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:17 pm

yes, as set out in 11.2.2 of the manual?

Kaede11
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Re: Why have my Spartan phalanxes deteriorated in quality

Post by Kaede11 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:06 pm

loki100 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:17 pm
yes, as set out in 11.2.2 of the manual?
If that's the case, I apologize.

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Re: Why have my Spartan phalanxes deteriorated in quality

Post by rbodleyscott » Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:46 pm

Kaede11 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:07 pm
I think the devs should be less opaque about how Empires converts to FOG2.

In my experience, which might be wrong, I feel that troop quality is "relative". If the same army fights against a worse general, it has better quality. If then they fight against a better general than your own, they have less quality.
That is correct, the quality of units on both sides is adjusted according to the difference in relative skills of the opposing generals. (The defender uses his defensive skill rating, the attacker uses his attacking skill rating)

This represents the effect of the relative skills of the opposing generals on the local pre-battle manoeuvres of the opposing armies. This impacts the quality rating of the units on the day.

To take a real world example: Before the battle of Trebia, Hannibal manoeuvred the Romans into crossing the freezing river on the morning of the battle, so that were were severely chilled and unable to fight as well as normal once battle was joined. Had the Romans had a better general, they would not have fallen into this trap.
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