‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

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TripleCP
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Re: ‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

Post by TripleCP » Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:09 am

1. I'd like to add my voice to those hoping to see more historically accurate icons for Soviet Infantry rather than generic ones that were cut and pasted in from prior DLCs.

2. Along the same lines, I think AI controlled Soviet factions should get their own icon/roundel (as do comparable Japanese, German, etc. AI factions) rather than a flat orange circle. A five pointed red star with gold edges on a red background (which was an unofficial Soviet Ground Forces Flag) would work well.

3. The Mongolian People's Republic should likewise get their own flag & roundel for the "August Storm" Manchuria 1945 scenario that will almost certainly be included in the third installment. These can then hopefully be retroactively inserted into the Khalkin Gol scenarios, as that conflict began as skirmishes between Mongolian and Manchukoan border guards which then escalated and drew in their respective patrons.

4. Hopefully the Soviets will get their own background music theme by installment 2, as well.

5. Not only the icons but the Soviet infantry roster as a whole seems to be somewhat of a cut and paste from prior DLCs and ought to be more unique:

Cavalry, for example. The Soviets made use of cavalry throughout the war so there ought to be an upgrade path for them. In addition to their traditional scouting role, the Red Army's cavalry served them well in both being able to operate in rough terrain as well as serving as an alternative to motorized infantry during the muddy seasons by bridging the gap between the armored spearheads and slow moving foot infantry when poor road conditions rendered trucks ineffective. They were used all the way until the end of the war, with mixed "cavalry-mechanized groups" operating in the Balkans as well as Manchuria.

Maybe a Cossack Cavalry recon unit could be added, as well. (We normally associate the Cossacks with those emigre formations that fought for the Nazis and other fascist powers but their numbers were dwarfed by those who served in the Red Army).

The Soviets learned from the Finns and used Ski Troops at the battle of Moscow. They could be added to the next installment (which I'm assuming will begin with some of the overambitious Soviet offensives of early 1942) and perhaps retroactively made available for the Moscow scenario of Red Star.

Soviet Paratroopers ought to be named "Desantniks." The term may not be quite as well known to English-speaking war-gamers as Fallschirmjager is but is probably better known than "Teishan Dan" or "Paracadutisti." Incidentally, Soviet Desantniks could provide an alternative way to obtain Guards Infantry as several Soviet Airborne formations were redesignated as Guards Rifle Divisions in late 1944 (probably due to the ill-fated airborne drops during the crossing of the Dnepr in autumn 1943). Maybe players who don't want to level up basic infantry could have an alternative method of getting Guards Infantry by converting Airborne units. A somewhat wasteful and expensive option, but still an option.

Soviet Marines should be "Naval Infantry" (or "Morskaya Pekhota") and ought to wear black/blue Red Navy uniforms. You can find pics of them in army khaki but they are best known for sporting their naval uniforms and had their own unique esprit d'corps from the Revolution/Civil War period.

6. With the use of different camaflouge designs for tanks, one graphical feature which would be kind of cool is if infantry formations could get distinctive summer and winter uniforms.

7. Like the Western Allies and the Axis, the Red Army had a number of units comprised of foreign personnel. Czechoslovakians were among the first and eventually reached corps strength. One of the most celebrated units of foreign personnel in Soviet service was the Normandie-Nieman Fighter Regiment, formed in March 1943 and comprised of Free French pilots. This could be a one off reward unit, a bonus unit for owners of earlier DLCs, or obtained via a specialization.

The largest group of foreign soldiers in Soviet service were the Poles, beginning with the Kościuszko Division in May 1943 and eventually expanding into the Polish People's Army which took part in numerous campaigns including the capture of Berlin. The formation and expansion of Polish units could be something akin to the Waffen SS for the Germans as this was a political decision.
Last edited by TripleCP on Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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GabeKnight
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Re: ‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

Post by GabeKnight » Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:50 pm

TripleCP wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:09 am
5. Not only the icons but the Soviet infantry roster as a whole seems to be somewhat of a cut and paste from prior DLCs and ought to be more unique:
That's because the whole Soviet infantry roster is re-using the Japanese models... :roll:

...furthermore I agree with all your other points.

And please, fix the cavalry animation already! :evil:

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Re: ‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

Post by GUNDOBALDO08 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:38 pm

I would suggest that 3d model of netherland infantry could be also for romanian infantry: helmet is the same!

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Re: ‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

Post by GUNDOBALDO08 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:24 pm

Skoda R2 vz35 was type of tanks wich equiped 1 rumenian tank division on Don river during Soviet offensive. Actually was rumenian version of Panzer 35.

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Re: ‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

Post by GUNDOBALDO08 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:52 pm

If Units Navigator data base is correct t34/43 is available from 11/11/43, but that’s wrong because this model partecipate to Uranus offensive started in novembre 1942...

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Re: ‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

Post by bebro » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:10 am

GUNDOBALDO08 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:38 pm
I would suggest that 3d model of netherland infantry could be also for romanian infantry: helmet is the same!
Good idea.

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Re: ‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

Post by GUNDOBALDO08 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:10 am

bebro wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:10 am
GUNDOBALDO08 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:38 pm
I would suggest that 3d model of netherland infantry could be also for romanian infantry: helmet is the same!
Good idea.
Thanks Bebro, happy I can help! 😉

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Re: ‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

Post by terminator » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:22 pm

GUNDOBALDO08 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:52 pm
If Units Navigator data base is correct t34/43 is available from 11/11/43, but that’s wrong because this model partecipate to Uranus offensive started in novembre 1942...
T34/76 Model 1943 in 1942 :shock:
You must be thinking of with T-34/76 Model 1942/1943 :

T-34M43.JPG
T-34M43.JPG (122.36 KiB) Viewed 565 times

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Re: ‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

Post by GUNDOBALDO08 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:14 pm

terminator wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:22 pm
GUNDOBALDO08 wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:52 pm
If Units Navigator data base is correct t34/43 is available from 11/11/43, but that’s wrong because this model partecipate to Uranus offensive started in novembre 1942...
T34/76 Model 1943 in 1942 :shock:
You must be thinking of with T-34/76 Model 1942/1943 :


T-34M43.JPG
I’thinking about T34 with two man exagonal turret, there was ‘42 and ‘43 version

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Re: ‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

Post by GUNDOBALDO08 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:26 am

bebro wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:10 am
GUNDOBALDO08 wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:38 pm
I would suggest that 3d model of netherland infantry could be also for romanian infantry: helmet is the same!
Good idea.
By the way, Hungarian infantry could use german 3d model, only with other coulour, but helmets and other is the same...

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Re: ‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

Post by prestidigitation » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:06 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:59 am
terminator wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:52 am
kondi754 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:01 pm
Soviet assault engineers units - appeared first time at Smolensk area, August 1943
This troops wore steel body armor (breastplates like medieval knights :) ) and they did an amazing work attacking fortifications or during the breaking of the German defense on the main points of Red Army attack (only later mechanized corps entered the battle, in order to use the so-called operational success and broaden the breakthrough area)
Steel body armor could be a Specialization for the Soviet Engineers units ?
Maybe, but these were completely new assault units, rather like US Rangers or German Pioniers, I wouldn't call them sappers or engineers with armor
A little of both. The Soviet model of infantry fighting involved heavy emphasis on infiltration and close quarters combat. Infantry were expected to close to the minimum possible distance before launching their attack. They were ideally supported by artillery and armor where possible, especially the much loved 120mm mortars, but often conducted their battle as infantry pure formations. This is bog standard for all Soviet infantry and why about half of them were equipped with the excellent PPSh-41. Smoke grenades, smoke shells from mortars and other sources of smoke were used to occlude the battlefield when night attack was not an option and cover was not ideal.

Shock troops were trained even more thoroughly on this model and equipped with personal body armor effective against low velocity or small caliber rounds, shell fragments, richochets, knifes, bayonets etc. Against direct fire at combat distances it wasn't effective, but against most of the likely sources of injury on the battlefield it was pretty great. Best of all it was relatively cheap and easy to mass produce so it was. This is the famous steel bib : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_Bib

In addition to their body armor they used explosives, knives, trenching shovels and other standard combat engineer equipment.

However it wasn't just the combat engineers that were assigned SN-42 combat armor. Tankodesantniki or tank riders were also commonly assigned the equipment. These were infantry equipped in a broadly similar style whose role was close coordination with armor including literally riding on top of it. As various Soviet officers have depicted it, coordination was in point of fact relatively loose when in actual combat. The infantry would dismount and run along behind or alongside the tank for cover, but would otherwise operate independently to clear out AT guns and other obstacles. They didn't have the handy field modification of a rear attached field telephone as M4 Shermans did, so when they wanted the attention of their tank they simply bashed on the hull with whatever heavy object seemed convenient until the commander stuck their head out.

For representing these two iconic units in the game I would use a Tankodesantniki and Shturmoviki infantry unit. One would be an elite upgrade for combat engineers (shturmovniki) and the other would be a purchased elite unit (tankodesantniki). To show their close coordination with tanks, either the tankodesantniki would have an ability to "merge" with a nearby tank or it could just have access to M2 halftracks or something.

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Re: ‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

Post by Erik2 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:50 am

I really like the requests for additional Soviet units. These would make for a more interesting and particular Soviet army, maybe allow/force the players to use Soviet-style tactics.

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Re: ‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

Post by bebro » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:12 am

I'm afraid I have to curb the enthusiasm a bit here.

The thing is that we are already having many inf units, and I doubt adding many more is the way to go.

We have inf and guards inf, not to mention heavy, eng, para, marines - all with new models coming in per year, which already represents various improvements.

Adding another round on top of various of those units gets tricky fast - say you have standard eng and assault eng - why would ppl still use the normal version then?

Others, like tank riders are probably too tricky to implement - I can see players abusing this for tanks acting as quasi APCs then all the time, and IMO this is not what tank riders (or their tanks) should be about.

Also the question is if those specific units should get yearly models too after their intro - then it gets even more tricky to give *each* unit a distinctive role.

I think some of those could indeed be specialisations rather than full new units.

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Re: ‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

Post by Erik2 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:57 am

Combat eng vs assault eng could be solved with the latter having no build pontoon ability.
Actually, making this distinction was a missed opportunity early in OOB. Standard eng should be cheap with cp = 2 (Seabees and Bau eng), while assault eng could be more expensive than inf and CP=4. That would give the players more options.
I understand that adjusting old official scenarios may not be an option.

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Re: ‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

Post by prestidigitation » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:42 pm

bebro wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:12 am
I'm afraid I have to curb the enthusiasm a bit here.

The thing is that we are already having many inf units, and I doubt adding many more is the way to go.

We have inf and guards inf, not to mention heavy, eng, para, marines - all with new models coming in per year, which already represents various improvements.
Sure, but Soviet tactical doctrine didn't emphasize use of morskaya pekhota. They saw limited action outside of major naval bases and in a few landings. You'd be better off representing them as a fancy auxiliary unit unless you intend to represent the fascinating series of naval brawls and landings in the Baltic in 41 (in and around Hanko plus numerous islands, which you haven't yet so I'm guessing no) and the Kerch peninsula landing. They played a very limited role in the war with numbers equivalent to those of the shtrafbats and even more limited AO.

By contrast mounted cavalry (who still, as David Glantz documents in his three volume on Operation Mars, considered the saber drawn cavalry charge during night or poor weather a core part of their tactical arsenal) were a large part of the RKKA and assigned an operational role as long range and relatively mobile infantry component of the operational group.

I was frankly shocked when I found that cavalry in Red Star are so atrociously statted with no upgrade path given how core a component cavalry was for them! And how well equipped!

And speaking of cavalry, Polish cavalry in particular should be better against enemy tanks as the wz. 35 ATR was designed for mounted and dismounted cavalry use. The Soviets similarly used the PTRS-41 and PTRD to dramatically improve the performance of their cavalry and infantry. Ignore the goofy comments about frontal armor penetration in the PTRD wiki article (sometimes wiki just makes me shake my head, how dumb would someone have to be to shoot an AMR frontally at an AFV? that's asking to die lol, the crew mgs and turret are almost certainly facing directly at you!) tactical doctrine for use was to aim for a disabling shot on one of the tracks which the PTRS and PTRD could pull off easily throughout the war. This would cause a mission kill on the vehicle and force a crew dismount with obvious consequences. It would also often cause the tank to slew to the remaining tracked side, exposing the side armor to attack by support tanks or AT weapons or even the AMR on all but the heaviest German tanks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wz._35_anti-tank_rifle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTRD-41

I know this game doesn't take place on such a small scale, I'm using them to argue for better cavalry AT performance for the Soviets and Poles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalry_mechanized_group
Adding another round on top of various of those units gets tricky fast - say you have standard eng and assault eng - why would ppl still use the normal version then?
The same reason people opt to use standard infantry over heavy infantry: CP advantage and reinforce cost. If shturmovniki are more expensive and +1 CP to represent their elite status, they become an interesting alternative rather than a must have. Your command point system is easily the best balancer for this style of game that I have ever seen so don't be acting like you don't have the tools to differentiate them well lol.
Others, like tank riders are probably too tricky to implement - I can see players abusing this for tanks acting as quasi APCs then all the time, and IMO this is not what tank riders (or their tanks) should be about.
This isn't abuse, it is literally the problem tankodesantniki were created to solve: a lack of spare industrial capacity for halftracks and the need for tank infantry coordination to fight a combined arms battle. An easy way to ensure players don't go overboard with it is to lower defensive stats when tankodesantniki are mounted on a tank to represent the appalling vulnerability of these men when mounted to shell fragments and small arms.

If you're not a fan of that approach then another option would be to unlock them with a lend lease specialization and give them mandatory M2 halftrack mounts. I personally would get a lot out of an elite halftrack mounted infantry unit as it would be just the thing I need for my attacking style of elite medium armor + rocket artillery + aa + engineer. An additional and more sturdy unit for city assault would be great!
Also the question is if those specific units should get yearly models too after their intro - then it gets even more tricky to give *each* unit a distinctive role.

I think some of those could indeed be specialisations rather than full new units.
I think specializations are a great option for introducing some of these units. I personally would suggest offering three primary specialization paths that are mutually exclusive to represent the fascinating conceptual diversity of the RKKA.

Path 1: Shock Army. This specialization would unlock the Br-5 280mm howitzer, the shturmovniki and the ISU-152 plus provide an additional star of vet for combat engineer and artillery type units. The focus would be on close combat and overwhelmingly powerful artillery backed by a powerful assault gun as the centerpiece heavy armor unit.

Path 2: Tank Army. This specialization would unlock the IS-2 series, the tankodesantniki and the Andryusha 300mm rocket artillery plus an additional star of vet for heavy tank units. Obviously this is for the tank obsessed.

Path 3: Cavalry-Mechanized Group. This specialization would unlock Kosaken elite cavalry, Konnaya Razvedka reconnaissance cavalry, the ISU-122mm (an extremely potent tank destroyer) and the Pe-8 heavy bomber type plus an additional star of vet for air and recon type units. This would be for players who have a more swashbuckling style of play and want to try out heavy use of recon and air.

Having three separate paths would allow greater diversity in the roster without unloading it all at once on the player. It also opens up the possibility for replay and trying new things because each one is better at different stuff. It would also allow you to do things like vary the command point cost of units, vary the command points of air and land available to the player based on their choice and other neat stuff.

Nice side benefit, it also gets away from the hoary old Order 227 memes and shtrafbats which were present in both the Nazi and Soviet army but only seem to show up for the Soviets. I'd personally like to see the game stick to the forces that made up the vast majority of the RKKA rather than do what CoH2 did and focus on a very small piece. I will be especially annoyed if we get a bunch of commissar memes in the mission briefings like the Panzer Corps Soviet campaign. Red Star has been a fantastic improvement on that franchise's attempts, so please keep that up!

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Re: ‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

Post by prestidigitation » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:45 pm

Erik2 wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:57 am
Combat eng vs assault eng could be solved with the latter having no build pontoon ability.
Actually, making this distinction was a missed opportunity early in OOB. Standard eng should be cheap with cp = 2 (Seabees and Bau eng), while assault eng could be more expensive than inf and CP=4. That would give the players more options.
I understand that adjusting old official scenarios may not be an option.
I'm really not a fan of this idea tbh. At 2 CP, engineers are very well statted for their performance and can be mechanized without imposing an undue burden on your CP. This compensates nicely for their poor move speed and weak defensive stats.

At 4 CP they no longer have a role to play unless their stats and move speed are dramatically improved. And even then this is honestly a downgrade in many respects as it removes the ability to have CP efficient infantry support capable of keeping up with the armor.

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Re: ‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

Post by Erik2 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:27 pm

prestidigitation

Sorry, I meant CP = 3 like regular infantry. Regular eng is pretty slow, so any combat engineers would probably need transport as well.

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Re: ‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

Post by Erik2 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:13 am

The Soviets are missing mountaineer units.

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Re: ‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

Post by bebro » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:13 am

prestidigitation wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:42 pm
This isn't abuse, it is literally the problem tankodesantniki were created to solve: a lack of spare industrial capacity for halftracks and the need for tank infantry coordination to fight a combined arms battle. An easy way to ensure players don't go overboard with it is to lower defensive stats when tankodesantniki are mounted on a tank to represent the appalling vulnerability of these men when mounted to shell fragments and small arms.
My point is that the current gameplay mechanism to use a TP means the unit is "inside" it, and gets affected by the TP's stats.

For trucks it is not a prob, as they are weaker, but for tank riders it would mean they enjoy the tank's (usually better) def stats as if they would be inside the tank, and not sitting on top of it rather unprotected - that way we have a modern APC like combi (or IFV, if you will) which I think does not represent this well.

Implementing that those inf guys get more vulnerable when TP-ed (and then go back to higher stats if dismounted), while the actual tank/tp keeps his defense stats is certainly not "an easy way"... ;)

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Re: ‘41-‘43 soviet dlc wishlist

Post by terminator » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:26 am

TripleCP wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:09 am

4. Hopefully the Soviets will get their own background music theme by installment 2, as well.
With 3 DLCs planned, it would be appreciable :idea:

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