Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

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Would you be in favour of moving to larger 1600pt armies in all sections of the FOG2 Digital League?

Poll ended at Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:04 pm

1. Yes
34
56%
2. No
27
44%
 
Total votes: 61

Cunningcairn
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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by Cunningcairn » Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:24 am

harveylh wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:46 am
stockwellpete wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:10 am

During the course of the trial I will listen to arguments that say the default size of the battles should be 1600pts (because larger sized battles won the poll) and that both players should have to opt for 1200pt armies to be able to play a medium sized battle. I do think it is incumbent on me to listen to player's views on the trial as it is taking place. But I will not listen to arguments that say all battles should be 1600pts in future. The poll result did not come to that conclusion and I will not be running any further polls on this subject.
Seems very reasonable to me and I voted for 1600 points after being persuaded by Cunningcairn.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by NikiforosFokas » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:37 pm

GDod wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:24 am
lets celebrate that enlightened choice of list and combination of troop types, or that stunning charge, or continue to be awed and stunned by that unexpected collapse, and continue to enjoy the game regardless of the points!
I like you Sir!
For Byzantium!!

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by klayeckles » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:31 pm

GDod wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:24 am
nyczar » 10 Jul 2020 10:28
More list points mitigates the medium infantry swarm risk faced by high quality (heavy) lists due to inferior unit numbers
In all likelihood, the player using a "medium infantry swarm" will be very reluctant to agree to a large battle. Hence, the argument for larger battles seems redundant if it is to be by agreement.

I think one has to hark back to the reason for increasing army size. If it is to provide relief for armies who rely on expensive troop types or to reduce the effectiveness of swarm armies it may be desirable to drop the "agreement" condition. Alternatively, it may be more desirable to identify 'the problem army lists' and decree battles involving these lists should be 1600 points.

I only present this discussion as possible solutions to "tweeking" others concerns about an already perfectly good simple system. I personally love my 'expensive troop types' who regularly get swamped by cheaper troop types...hussar!

Moreover, there is definitely a point of difference between the Digi-league and the Slitherine tournaments. Attributes of the Slitherine tournament genre include historical opponents, going large and mirror games, which gives their competition a flavour all of it's own. In contrast, I think what attracts me more to the Digi-league is the handicap system and the variety (i.e. themed, defined periods, some 1200pts, some 1600pts) So, lets celebrate that enlightened choice of list and combination of troop types, or that stunning charge, or continue to be awed and stunned by that unexpected collapse, and continue to enjoy the game regardless of the points!
i don't understand this idea that larger battles help the smaller more elite armies...larger battles help the swarm armies MORE. Go build a Welsh army and our favorite, the Seleucid. At 1600pt the welsh will outnumber the seleuicid 2 to 1...an astonishing 40+ non skirmish troops. the larger field gives more room to manouver, and so the welsh can find more ways to use the numerical advantage. I'm against the large army idea partly because of that (just having to watch my opponent move 50+ troops around is tiring...let alone responding to that kind of mess). Aside from mitigating some of the uncertainties (luck) the large battles take more time and will mean fewer players, but don't appreciably change the outcomes, tactics, strategies or manouvering. (and without the luck factor what will we all complain about ?? :oops: )

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by deeter » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:50 pm

Wouldn't larger armies also lessen the influence of generals on morale or do they scale up too?

Deeter

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by nyczar » Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:06 am

klayeckles wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:31 pm
GDod wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:24 am
nyczar » 10 Jul 2020 10:28
More list points mitigates the medium infantry swarm risk faced by high quality (heavy) lists due to inferior unit numbers
In all likelihood, the player using a "medium infantry swarm" will be very reluctant to agree to a large battle. Hence, the argument for larger battles seems redundant if it is to be by agreement.

I think one has to hark back to the reason for increasing army size. If it is to provide relief for armies who rely on expensive troop types or to reduce the effectiveness of swarm armies it may be desirable to drop the "agreement" condition. Alternatively, it may be more desirable to identify 'the problem army lists' and decree battles involving these lists should be 1600 points.

I only present this discussion as possible solutions to "tweeking" others concerns about an already perfectly good simple system. I personally love my 'expensive troop types' who regularly get swamped by cheaper troop types...hussar!

Moreover, there is definitely a point of difference between the Digi-league and the Slitherine tournaments. Attributes of the Slitherine tournament genre include historical opponents, going large and mirror games, which gives their competition a flavour all of it's own. In contrast, I think what attracts me more to the Digi-league is the handicap system and the variety (i.e. themed, defined periods, some 1200pts, some 1600pts) So, lets celebrate that enlightened choice of list and combination of troop types, or that stunning charge, or continue to be awed and stunned by that unexpected collapse, and continue to enjoy the game regardless of the points!
i don't understand this idea that larger battles help the smaller more elite armies...larger battles help the swarm armies MORE. Go build a Welsh army and our favorite, the Seleucid. At 1600pt the welsh will outnumber the seleuicid 2 to 1...an astonishing 40+ non skirmish troops. the larger field gives more room to manouver, and so the welsh can find more ways to use the numerical advantage. I'm against the large army idea partly because of that (just having to watch my opponent move 50+ troops around is tiring...let alone responding to that kind of mess). Aside from mitigating some of the uncertainties (luck) the large battles take more time and will mean fewer players, but don't appreciably change the outcomes, tactics, strategies or manouvering. (and without the luck factor what will we all complain about ?? :oops: )
A larger heavy force can expand the area that a larger medium force must travel to find a flank(s), allowing the heavy force more time to break the center and support the wings....in theory...

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by pantherboy » Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:15 pm

Can I just point out that shifting a match to large proportionally increases the map size, increases points, increases the min/max of unit types and I think provides a second general with a command radius equal to the CinC. Ostensibly this means everything is the same as a medium size battle except on a larger scale. There shouldn't be a greater disparity in forces just more of everything. Percentage wise you should still end up with the same force composition e.g. max skirmishers in lieu of other units. Also understand that Pete will be making it optional so that a large battle will be contingent on both players desiring one otherwise it will be medium sized. As for myself I don't care either way so if I decide to play next season I will select large so that my opponents can enjoy their match in whatever fashion pleases them as it will default to medium if that is what they have selected.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by nyczar » Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:40 pm

pantherboy wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:15 pm
Can I just point out that shifting a match to large proportionally increases the map size, increases points, increases the min/max of unit types and I think provides a second general with a command radius equal to the CinC. Ostensibly this means everything is the same as a medium size battle except on a larger scale. There shouldn't be a greater disparity in forces just more of everything. Percentage wise you should still end up with the same force composition e.g. max skirmishers in lieu of other units. Also understand that Pete will be making it optional so that a large battle will be contingent on both players desiring one otherwise it will be medium sized. As for myself I don't care either way so if I decide to play next season I will select large so that my opponents can enjoy their match in whatever fashion pleases them as it will default to medium if that is what they have selected.
I drew this out to illustrate what I was saying. On the left, the smaller heavy list (the "x's") is in a wedge with refused flanks. It may be flanked by the enemy (assume a medium list) in 8 turns. On the right, a larger heavy list in the same formation may be flanked in 9 turns by the larger enemy force. So even if everything is bigger, and because everything is bigger, a larger force gives the heavies more time. Of course this assumes passive defense to make the point.
fog pic.jpg
fog pic.jpg (102.48 KiB) Viewed 492 times
No?
Last edited by nyczar on Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by harveylh » Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:43 pm

Nice illustration to make your point, nyczar!

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by stockwellpete » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:30 pm

pantherboy wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:15 pm
Also understand that Pete will be making it optional so that a large battle will be contingent on both players desiring one otherwise it will be medium sized.
I think what I could do once I have formed up the divisions for Classical Antiquity next season is to straight away calculate the number of matches that would be played at 1600pts if either 1200pts or 1600pts was used as the default size of the battle. If we take the 4 main league sections at the moment we have a 50/50 balance between 1200 and 1600pts - and the poll was 56/44 in favour of increasing the proportion of larger sized matches. So now I am looking to arrange it so around 60% of tournament matches are played at 1600pts. So if I do these two calculations (default at 1200pts and default at 1600pts) before next season starts I will be able to see which comes nearer to the desired 60% figure and then we can use that. I certainly do not want the proportion of matches to be played at 1600pts to fall below 50% because in Season 10 (starting February 2021) I hope to be able to use this new system right across the tournament so that all sections will, in future, be a mixture of 1200pt and 1600pt matches.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by pantherboy » Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:59 pm

The system works as I tried it out when I was running the Caracole tournaments in Pike & Shot. I allowed players to opt for their preferred battle size and there were no complaints or arguments.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by Cunningcairn » Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:57 pm

nyczar wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:40 pm
pantherboy wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:15 pm
Can I just point out that shifting a match to large proportionally increases the map size, increases points, increases the min/max of unit types and I think provides a second general with a command radius equal to the CinC. Ostensibly this means everything is the same as a medium size battle except on a larger scale. There shouldn't be a greater disparity in forces just more of everything. Percentage wise you should still end up with the same force composition e.g. max skirmishers in lieu of other units. Also understand that Pete will be making it optional so that a large battle will be contingent on both players desiring one otherwise it will be medium sized. As for myself I don't care either way so if I decide to play next season I will select large so that my opponents can enjoy their match in whatever fashion pleases them as it will default to medium if that is what they have selected.
I drew this out to illustrate what I was saying. On the left, the smaller heavy list (the "x's") is in a wedge with refused flanks. It may be flanked by the enemy (assume a medium list) in 8 turns. On the right, a larger heavy list in the same formation may be flanked in 9 turns by the larger enemy force. So even if everything is bigger, and because everything is bigger, a larger force gives the heavies more time. Of course this assumes passive defense to make the point. fog pic.jpg No?
Good illustration. The bigger army size also facilitates the use of reserves which mitigate surprising and disastrous combats results.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by Jagger2002 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:54 pm

I dropped out of the DLC because my two areas of interest, Biblical and Early Medieval, were the first converted to large battles. Now I just play fun games with friends and open pickup games. I don't play nearly as many games but I still have a lot of fun and much more relaxing.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:35 pm

pantherboy wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:59 pm
The system works as I tried it out when I was running the Caracole tournaments in Pike & Shot. I allowed players to opt for their preferred battle size and there were no complaints or arguments.
Yes, I am sure it does, but the one remaining issue is whether the default size of the battles should be 1200pts or 1600pts. The poll does suggest a small majority in favour of 1600pts so perhaps 1600pts should be the default size in future? Remember, that we will trial this is Season 9 with a view to rolling it out right across the tournament in Season 10.

To give an example of what will happen . . .

Consider a division in one of the standard tournament sections in future where 5 players have indicated they prefer 1200pt matches and 5 players have said they want to play at 1600pts.

If we set the default size at 1200pts then all those wanting to play at that size will get all 9 matches at 1200pts; the players wanting to play at 1600pts will only get 4 such matches and will play the other 5 at 1200pts. Overall, 35 out of the 45 matches that constitute a division will be played at 1200pts and only 10 at 1600pts.

If, on the other hand, we set the default size of 1600pts (as the poll suggests we might) then the numbers are reversed and 35 matches will be played at 1600pts and only 10 at 1200pts. Players wanting to play at 1200pts would only get 4 such matches and would have to play 5 at 1600pts, while those preferring 1600pts would play all matches at that scale.

Whatever is decided we need to consider the tournament-wide impact of such a change. Will players wanting to play at 1200pts be happy with (on average, depending on the balance of preferences in each division) playing just over half of their matches at 1600pts? If we set the default at 1200pts then the same question can be asked of those who prefer a slightly larger battle (and whose preference narrowly prevailed in our most recent poll).

Obviously if we have situations where, say, 7 players indicate a preference for a particular size game then the numbers will shift considerably.

For example, if the default was set at 1200pts and 3 players indicated a preference for that size but 7 players selected 1600pts then 24 matches out of 45 would be played at 1200pts and just 21 at 1600pts. Players preferring 1200pts would play all their matches at that scale and the 1600pt players would play 6 of their matches at their preferred size.

However, if the default size was set at 1600pts then only 3 matches out of the 45 would be played at 1200pts and 42 at 1600pts. Players preferring 1200pts would only get 2 matches at that size.

I hope my maths is correct. Thoughts please.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by pantherboy » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:51 pm

To be honest I think someone who prefers playing large battles is more likely to acquiesce with being required to play mid size rather than vice versa. Setting large as the default would probably cause some player attrition while medium would not. Also for players that perceive the size of the battle as taking noticeably more additional time that fact may limit their involvement in how many Divisions they sign up for.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by Karvon » Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:05 pm

I, for one, would definitely not play in divisions with 1600 pt defaults.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by nyczar » Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:10 pm

pantherboy wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:51 pm
To be honest I think someone who prefers playing large battles is more likely to acquiesce with being required to play mid size rather than vice versa. Setting large as the default would probably cause some player attrition while medium would not. Also for players that perceive the size of the battle as taking noticeably more additional time that fact may limit their involvement in how many Divisions they sign up for.
+1

i understand that the vote is influencing the consideration. Those that like larger battles have played at the 1200 point level. no one has said they didn't play because of the medium size, but many have warned they dont want to play larger.

Edit: note, I voted for large.
Last edited by nyczar on Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by rs2excelsior » Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:49 pm

As someone who voted large, I'd say medium would still be better for the default. As much as I feel that large battles aren't much more burdensome than medium, it seems a lot of people do, and I agree with the sentiment that most people who prefer large will be more okay with playing medium than people who prefer medium would like to play large battles.

I (personally) think the best idea is to leave the default at medium for now. See how many players choose each size and how many medium vs large matches we end up with. Perhaps if we want to keep some variation once/if this gets rolled out across the entire league, some divisions could default to medium and some to large, similar to the different sizes we have now.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:10 pm

rs2excelsior wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:49 pm
As someone who voted large, I'd say medium would still be better for the default. As much as I feel that large battles aren't much more burdensome than medium, it seems a lot of people do, and I agree with the sentiment that most people who prefer large will be more okay with playing medium than people who prefer medium would like to play large battles.

I (personally) think the best idea is to leave the default at medium for now. See how many players choose each size and how many medium vs large matches we end up with. Perhaps if we want to keep some variation once/if this gets rolled out across the entire league, some divisions could default to medium and some to large, similar to the different sizes we have now.
One thing I could do from Season 10 (February 2021) onwards is have the main league sections with the default set at 1200pts (we may also have Later Medieval by then as well) and switch the Themed Event to default 1600pts to try and encourage a few more to join it. I could even offer a 1600pt/2000pt choice as the schedule for the Themed Event is much looser now with the quarter-finals taken out and only 12 players per pool. Players now have to complete just 4 group stage matches in the first 5 weeks of the tournament and possibly 4 KO matches in the second 5 weeks of the season, so there is plenty of time for a slightly longer game in that section.

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by rs2excelsior » Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:26 pm

stockwellpete wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:10 pm
One thing I could do from Season 10 (February 2021) onwards is have the main league sections with the default set at 1200pts (we may also have Later Medieval by then as well) and switch the Themed Event to default 1600pts to try and encourage a few more to join it. I could even offer a 1600pt/2000pt choice as the schedule for the Themed Event is much looser now with the quarter-finals taken out and only 12 players per pool. Players now have to complete just 4 group stage matches in the first 5 weeks of the tournament and possibly 4 KO matches in the second 5 weeks of the season, so there is plenty of time for a slightly longer game in that section.
For me, the reason I didn't come back to the themed event this time around (besides wanting to try out the EMA section) was that everyone's in one pool. Got beat hard by two Div A players right out of the gate last time, decided to stick with the main sections until I get a bit better, haha. (although I think I did manage a point out of one or two of the matches)

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Re: Larger armies right across the FOG2 Digital League?

Post by MikeMarchant » Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:58 pm

In my experience, far more people threaten to quit than do actually quit.


Best Wishes

Mike

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