FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

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MikeMarchant
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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by MikeMarchant » Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:43 pm

edb1815 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:48 pm
devoncop wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:10 pm
IainMcNeil wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:59 pm
There will be warnings before a sanction. I'm not willing to discuss the details of this as it could be used to try and manipulate things. The aim is to find a balance between preventing cheating and false positives. We agree it was too far one way, we just want to be careful we don't go too far the other. The system will involve black marks being allocated, which will fade over time, but we wont be discussing details of either aspect.
And there we have it.

I hoped the zero tolerance policy towards cheats was now established.

Apparently not.
I disagree. There is still zero tolerance towards a cheater.

Having said that zero tolerance policies in society do not often work as intended and are often have disastrous, if untended consequences. But let's look at this from a criminal law perspective. The accused in most countries is presumed innocent unless the charges are proved against them. If you apply that to the system here, which as Iain noted, applies across multiple games, they need to ensure sufficient evidence of actual cheating before perma-banning someone. So an automated system needs to have a safeguard against conviction of an innocent player. Once guilt is established your cheater is expelled. So you can still say there is zero tolerance because all cheaters once proven guilty are banned.

I do hope you will continue to play I always enjoy our games. :)
Well said; couldn't agree more.


Best Wishes

Mike

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FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:51 am

edb1815 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:58 pm
It is also clear that at least one vocal member of this forum, who wants to see all the data, has taken the time to determine how one could game the system and reported his findings. Frankly I think that supports your reasoning for not being specific about the details of the anti-cheat system.
Reported to who? Hopefully, it was intended as a helpful gesture and was reported to Slitherine.

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Re: FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Post by edb1815 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:55 pm

stockwellpete wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:51 am
edb1815 wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:58 pm
It is also clear that at least one vocal member of this forum, who wants to see all the data, has taken the time to determine how one could game the system and reported his findings. Frankly I think that supports your reasoning for not being specific about the details of the anti-cheat system.
Reported to who? Hopefully, it was intended as a helpful gesture and was reported to Slitherine.
I believe he posted it in the forums previously and again in this thread. Yes I took it as a helpful gesture, abet one that was also a critique of the system.

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by Swuul » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:44 am

IainMcNeil wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:55 pm
We will make an announcement once everything is finalised but it will be about general systems and not details.
Is there any guesstimate when we could expect such an announcement?

The signup for FOG2:DL Season 9 is open, and personally I am having mixed feelings. On one hand I really do enjoy the Digital League matches, on one hand I can't help having that nagging feeling "moderate amounts" of cheating is still ok (as long as one doesn't go absolutely nuts with cheating in every game) :( Pete mentioned players should not take part in DL if they don't trust the players or the current anti-cheating system, and frankly said, I do have trust issues regarding the manual system apparently currently in use.
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FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:53 am

Swuul wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:44 am
IainMcNeil wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:55 pm
We will make an announcement once everything is finalised but it will be about general systems and not details.
Is there any guesstimate when we could expect such an announcement?

The signup for FOG2:DL Season 9 is open, and personally I am having mixed feelings. On one hand I really do enjoy the Digital League matches, on one hand I can't help having that nagging feeling "moderate amounts" of cheating is still ok (as long as one doesn't go absolutely nuts with cheating in every game) :( Pete mentioned players should not take part in DL if they don't trust the players or the current anti-cheating system, and frankly said, I do have trust issues regarding the manual system apparently currently in use.
I asked the question earlier in the week and was told that work is ongoing with regards to the new monitoring system. I was not given an exact ETA. I suggest that as you have some doubts about the integrity of the FOG2DL then you do not enter this season. Hopefully, Slitherine will issue a statement in due course and, if you are satisfied by that, you will be welcome to return for future seasons. :wink:

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FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Post by kronenblatt » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:09 pm

Swuul wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:44 am
... I can't help having that nagging feeling "moderate amounts" of cheating is still ok (as long as one doesn't go absolutely nuts with cheating in every game)...
Surely every player in the DL should be able and willing to confirm that cheating in any scope or scale is not OK? Would such a confirmation (explicit , in addition to being part of the DL rules) make you feel comfortable? At least no one can then plead ignorance.
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Re: FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:20 pm

kronenblatt wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:09 pm
Surely every player in the DL should be able and willing to confirm that cheating in any scope or scale is not OK? Would such a confirmation (explicit , in addition to being part of the DL rules) make you feel comfortable? At least no one can then plead ignorance.
Not necessary. Players who enter the FOG2DL are assumed to be honest and trustworthy. If we find the occasional player who does not respect the rest of the community then we will remove them as quickly as we are able to.

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Re: FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Post by Blagrot » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:30 pm

kronenblatt wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:09 pm
Swuul wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:44 am
... I can't help having that nagging feeling "moderate amounts" of cheating is still ok (as long as one doesn't go absolutely nuts with cheating in every game)...
Surely every player in the DL should be able and willing to confirm that cheating in any scope or scale is not OK? Would such a confirmation (explicit , in addition to being part of the DL rules) make you feel comfortable? At least no one can then plead ignorance.
The problem is that a cheat can say that freely and still cheat, we're still having to trust them. I do prefer to start by trusting that players believe that without them having to state it and then act if someone doesn't live up to that, hopefully this new system will be better at acting on any problems that may arise and will reassure players like swuul that they can have a good, fair game.

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Re: FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Post by kronenblatt » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:53 pm

stockwellpete wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:20 pm
Not necessary. Players who enter the FOG2DL are assumed to be honest and trustworthy. If we find the occasional player who does not respect the rest of the community then we will remove them as quickly as we are able to.
Blagrot wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:30 pm
The problem is that a cheat can say that freely and still cheat, we're still having to trust them. I do prefer to start by trusting that players believe that without them having to state it and then act if someone doesn't live up to that, hopefully this new system will be better at acting on any problems that may arise and will reassure players like swuul that they can have a good, fair game.
All well and fine to trust people (I like that!). However, (i) why then have controls at all, in the first place, and (ii) people may not be fully aware of what's considered "cheating" and what's not (that's what I meant by "ignorance") so that would be a way of enlighten them and make them ask any questions if they're in doubt or in need of clarification. May avoid problems and misunderstandings later on. But as you say, Pete, maybe it's not necessary (don't want to rewake the sleeping bears here... ;) ).
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Re: FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Post by 76mm » Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:34 pm

Interesting thread! I'm not a DL player but play exclusively MP, so this topic is of interest to me. Silly me, I have always thought that the prospect for cheating was limited because the combat die rolls would be the same if you reloaded (so I thought?). Hadn't thought much about the sequencing and other random things that might be re-seeded.

While I expect that even fewer people would cheat in a random MP game than in a DL game, I hope that this system applies to all MP games rather than only DL games--could Slitherine confirm?

Also, I am against the hard-core zero-tolerance, zero uploads approach, and I think that Slitherine's proposal is about the best that can be hoped for...while I very rarely lose my entire internet connection, there have been many instances when I've not been able to submit a turn to the server for some reason. Is Slitherine's server down? Is there some problem between my computer and the server? I don't know, but I would hate to be branded a cheater for it. I see that Slitherine's approach will take into account server down-time, so hopefully that will address this issue.

That said, personally I would like more transparency...if an opponent has uploaded a single turn multiple times, I'd like to know about it.

For instance, right now I'm in what might be the final turn of a hard-fought MP game in which I'm winning 56-64. My opponent had been consistently returning 1-2 turns a day until now, when it's been three days since I submitted my last turn. Is he busy? Is he reloading the turn dozens of times to see if he can get enough rallies to survive another turn? This thread has me wondering...

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Re: FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Post by LuciusSulla » Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:56 pm

76mm wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:34 pm
For instance, right now I'm in what might be the final turn of a hard-fought MP game in which I'm winning 56-64. My opponent had been consistently returning 1-2 turns a day until now, when it's been three days since I submitted my last turn. Is he busy? Is he reloading the turn dozens of times to see if he can get enough rallies to survive another turn? This thread has me wondering...
As I understand, only a change in sequencing would change the result of dices. Since rallies all happen prior to player control, there is no way to change sequencing, thus no way to change the dice rolls in rallies?

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Re: FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Post by 76mm » Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:11 pm

LuciusSulla wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:56 pm
As I understand, only a change in sequencing would change the result of dices. Since rallies all happen prior to player control, there is no way to change sequencing, thus no way to change the dice rolls in rallies?
Maybe you're right, I have to admit that at this point I'm not very clear on what can and cannot be changed by reloading. And I'm not sure that I really want to know!

And I doubt anyone would bother to cheat in a casual MP game in any event, although I guess you never know...

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Re: FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Post by Jagger2002 » Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:23 pm

That said, personally I would like more transparency.
A solution with more transparency was suggested but instead a "black box, have faith" method was selected for some reason. I think it is an automated system as well. So if you lose power while playing or your computer dies, I assume you will get a automatic warning. If you lose power a couple times, you might be in trouble. The specifics of how many before expulsion or if there are appeals, I don't know. The good part is those types of incidents should be pretty rare but of course, if it does happens to you, you are not going to be a happy camper.

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Re: FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Post by Cunningcairn » Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:18 pm

76mm wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:34 pm


For instance, right now I'm in what might be the final turn of a hard-fought MP game in which I'm winning 56-64. My opponent had been consistently returning 1-2 turns a day until now, when it's been three days since I submitted my last turn. Is he busy? Is he reloading the turn dozens of times to see if he can get enough rallies to survive another turn? This thread has me wondering...
This phenomena happens to me quite often. When I'm winning a game convincingly players go AWOL for a couple of days and when they return they typically fare better than they had been. I don't think they are cheating by reloading the game multiple times. Alternatives are that they have either got depressed by losing and have temporarily lost the desire to play or there is method in their madness. Personally I think it comes back to statistical clumping and correctly or incorrectly they wait until their run of bad die will hopefully change.

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Re: FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Post by kronenblatt » Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:21 pm

76mm wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:34 pm
... I hope that this system applies to all MP games rather than only DL games--could Slitherine confirm? ...
Agree. Has Slitherine posted anything about this elsewhere, more centrally, in the FoG2 forum and not only in the DL sub-forum? If not, they should.
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Re: FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Post by Jagger2002 » Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:54 pm

Alternatives are that they have either got depressed by losing and have temporarily lost the desire to play
This in the vast majority of cases, IMO. I have seen the pattern many times over the years and have felt it myself too often.

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Re: FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Post by 76mm » Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:16 pm

kronenblatt wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:21 pm
Agree. Has Slitherine posted anything about this elsewhere, more centrally, in the FoG2 forum and not only in the DL sub-forum? If not, they should.
I've not seen anything on the main forum. I happened to wander over to this subforum this morning, when I found this thread.

Also, I have a strange, half-remembered recollection of receiving some kind of notice that my opponent had reloaded his turn multiple times during a fairly recent game (a few weeks ago?). After reading this thread, I'm wondering if I imagined this message or am confusing it somehow? If this occurred at all, I don't remember anything about the game and certainly didn't think at the time "Aha, my opponent must be cheating!".

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Re: FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Post by IainMcNeil » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:23 am

At the moment we are monitoring things carefully but the system has not changed. We're in the process of merging PBEM1, 2 and 3 together which is a necessary step before we can change the anti cheat systems. The current monitoring and any new system apply to all games.

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Re: FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Post by 76mm » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:48 am

Iain, I have a question: in the game I mentioned where I was winning 56-64, the other player never returned the turn. After a week I "claimed" the stalled game, and when I clicked on it in the Completed Games tab, I got a message that "Player was removed from the game: [PlayerName]".

I've never seen that message before...he didn't surrender, so was he removed because of the stalled game, or for some other reason?

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Re: FOG2DL given clean bill of health by Slitherine review . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:53 am

76mm wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:48 am
Iain, I have a question: in the game I mentioned where I was winning 56-64, the other player never returned the turn. After a week I "claimed" the stalled game, and when I clicked on it in the Completed Games tab, I got a message that "Player was removed from the game: [PlayerName]".

I've never seen that message before...he didn't surrender, so was he removed because of the stalled game, or for some other reason?
I am fairly certain it is because of the stalled game. I have seen that message a couple of times. :wink:

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