FOG:E/FOG2 integration

Field of Glory: Empires is a grand strategy game in which you will have to move in an intricate and living tapestry of nations and tribes, each one with their distinctive culture.
Set in Europe and in the Mediterranean Area during the Classical Age, experience what truly means to manage an Empire.

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dycu
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FOG:E/FOG2 integration

Post by dycu »

Hi guys. I've just started playing Empires and have some questions about the integrations between FOG:E and FOG2 for which I cannot find answers.

1. Why is Empires called Fields of Glory? What's the relation between that and the miniatures?
2. Is frontage taken into account in some way when you export battle to FOG2?
3. Does the difficulty in FOG2 works in exported battles? What's the best way to set difficulties across the two games to ave the best experience?
rbodleyscott
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Re: FOG:E/FOG2 integration

Post by rbodleyscott »

dycu wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:08 am Hi guys. I've just started playing Empires and have some questions about the integrations between FOG:E and FOG2 for which I cannot find answers.

1. Why is Empires called Fields of Glory? What's the relation between that and the miniatures?
Because of the partial integration between the two games. i.e. The ability to export Empires battles to FOG2 and reload the results into Empires.
2. Is frontage taken into account in some way when you export battle to FOG2?
No. We did not want to "nobble" the FOG2 experience.

However, this means that playing battles in FOG2 produces a different overall game experience, particularly when you need to attack in Mountainous terrain. If you are good at FOG2, playing narrow frontage Empires battles in FOG2 tends to make the battles easier for the more numerous army. So you may need to play Empires on a higher difficulty setting to compensate. Or play mountainous battles using the Empires battle resolution system.

You can obviously set such "house rules" for yourself if you find they improve the overall experience.
3. Does the difficulty in FOG2 works in exported battles?
Not by default, but there is a setting in "More Options" in Settings in FOG2 that allows the FOG difficulty setting to affect exported Empires battles
What's the best way to set difficulties across the two games to ave the best experience?
That depends on how skilled you are at FOG2. See above.

Most people would agree that it would be too time consuming to play out all battles in FOG. It is sometimes recommended to play out only the more important battles in FOG.
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dycu
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Re: FOG:E/FOG2 integration

Post by dycu »

rbodleyscott wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:16 am
dycu wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:08 am Hi guys. I've just started playing Empires and have some questions about the integrations between FOG:E and FOG2 for which I cannot find answers.

1. Why is Empires called Fields of Glory? What's the relation between that and the miniatures?
Because of the partial integration between the two games. i.e. The ability to export Empires battles to FOG and reload the results into Empires.
Ok I thought that this integration was added after realease, hence the confusion.
rbodleyscott wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:16 am
2. Is frontage taken into account in some way when you export battle to FOG2?
No. We did not want to "nobble" the FOG experience.

However, this means that playing battles in FOG produces a different overall game experience, particularly when you need to attack in Mountainous terrain. If you are good at FOG, playing Empires battles in FOG therefore makes battles in such circumstances easier than in Empires. So you may need to play Empires on a higher difficulty setting to compensate. Or play mountainous battles using the Empires batle resolution.
Ok, but when I had a fight between enemy much bigger army than the frontage and my army in FOG2 these armies were equal in strenght. I liked it but how it happend if frontage is not taken into account?
rbodleyscott wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:16 am
3. Does the difficulty in FOG2 works in exported battles?
Not by default, but there is a setting in "More Options" in Settings that allows the FOG difficulty setting to affect exported Empires battles
Ok that might be the reason why I did so well in exported battles. So what's the default difficulty in FOG2 when you export battles? Where are these options you mention?
rbodleyscott wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:16 am
What's the best way to set difficulties across the two games to ave the best experience?
That depends on how skilled you are at FOG. See above.

Most people would agree that it would be too time consuming to play out all battles in FOG. It is sometimes recommended to play out only the more important battles in FOG.

Do you know how popular it is to play at least some of the battles in FOG2? I love the idea, not sure which way is considered better to have the best experience in Empires.

Thanks for all the answers!
rbodleyscott
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Re: FOG:E/FOG2 integration

Post by rbodleyscott »

dycu wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:23 am
rbodleyscott wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:16 am
2. Is frontage taken into account in some way when you export battle to FOG2?
No. We did not want to "nobble" the FOG experience.
Ok, but when I had a fight between enemy much bigger army than the frontage and my army in FOG2 these armies were equal in strenght. I liked it but how it happend if frontage is not taken into account?
Because Empires units of different nations convert to different FOG units, the conversion ratio depends on the relative strength of the two units in the two games. A powerful Empires unit that converts to a less powerful FOG unit will convert to more FOG2 units than one that converts to an equally powerful or more powerful FOG2 unit.

This means that the number of units in the FOG2 battle is not directly proportional to the number of Empires units, and in your example this apparently resulted in the two armies being roughly equal in numbers but the overall power ratio should match the power ratio of the two armies in Empires.

This is not affected by the Empires battle frontage. It is however affected by the Hits Points of the Empires units - units that are under-strength have a lower conversion ratio.

There is a Developers Notes #9 news item on the STEAM Empires forum about playing Empires Battles in FOG2 - see next post.
rbodleyscott wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:16 am
3. Does the difficulty in FOG2 works in exported battles?
Not by default, but there is a setting in "More Options" in Settings that allows the FOG difficulty setting to affect exported Empires battles
Ok that might be the reason why I did so well in exported battles. So what's the default difficulty in FOG2 when you export battles? Where are these options you mention?
The only difference between FOG2 difficulty settings 2-5 are the ratio of player to AI troops total points totals. The AI gets more total troops points on higher difficulty settings.

By default, exported Empires battles do not adjust the conversion ratios for FOG2 difficulty. That is roughly equivalent to playing them on FOG2 difficulty setting 2.

If, however, you set FOG2 to use FOG2 difficulty settings for Empire battles, then the conversion ratio for enemy units will be increased on the higher difficulty settings.

This is in More Options in Settings in FOG2:


More Options.jpg
More Options.jpg (248.66 KiB) Viewed 563 times

Empires Battles use FOG2 difficulty setting.jpg
Empires Battles use FOG2 difficulty setting.jpg (241.19 KiB) Viewed 563 times
Do you know how popular it is to play at least some of the battles in FOG2? I love the idea, not sure which way is considered better to have the best experience in Empires.
I don't know how popular it is. I know some people love it, and others don't bother with it.

Empires is completely designed as a stand-alone game. Its built-in battle system has its own subtleties.

The option to Export battles to FOG2 is a completely optional extra for those who like tactical control of their units in battle.
Richard Bodley Scott

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rbodleyscott
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Re: FOG:E/FOG2 integration

Post by rbodleyscott »

Here it is:
Dev Diary #9 Addendum - Playing Empires Battles in FOG2
Playing Empires Battles in Fog2
by Richard Bodley Scott

From an early stage in development it was planned that, in addition to the in-game battle resolution system, Empires would also have the option to fight out battles in FOG2 if the player so chooses.
The main objectives were:

1) That Empires battles fought out in FOG2 should be varied and fun. (Number one priority!)
2) That the armies of each nation should be represented by the correct FOG2 units for their nation.
3) That general skill and traits, unit experience, unit effectiveness, hit points etc. from Empires should carry over into the FOG2 battles.
4) That terrain should be representative of the terrain in the region where the battle takes place.
5) That there should be no adjustments to make the battles more “even”, and no adjustments to take into account the FOG2 difficulty setting. The situation should be as per the campaign situation.
6) That the export/import process and switching between the games should be as automated a process as possible.

How does the game decide which FOG2 unit type to convert an Empires unit to?
Empires has a database specifying which FOG2 unit type each Empires unit type maps to, with a quality adjustment for some. The mapping is different depending on the national archetype. This information is passed in the export file, along with various other factors affecting the conversion.
The Empires system potentially gives "Heavy Foot, Warriors, Mercenary Foot, Urban Militia etc." to every nation. The FOG2 conversion system attempts to convert each nation's forces to FOG2 units that are appropriate to their historical prototype. So for example "Warriors" in a Gallic Army will translate to FOG2 Warbands, but those in an Italian army will translate to FOG2 Italian Foot. This means that Empires "Heavy Foot", for example, may translate to FOG2 Medium Foot for some nations, if the nation never actually had any troops that FOG2 would rate as Heavy Foot.
Also some units translate to a mixture of FOG2 units, because this leads to more historically realistic armies. Pre-Marian Roman legionary units translate to a mixture of hastati/principes and triarii units, in approximately a 2:1 ratio. Horse archer units, if present in large numbers, translate to a mixture of Light Horse and Cavalry.

How does the game decide how many FOG2 units each Empires unit maps to?
The Empires : FOG2 unit conversion ratio depends on the unit type, because it is points based. This is because the difference in effectiveness between various Empires units is often significantly greater than the difference between the effectiveness of their FOG2 equivalents. To get the same relative effectiveness as in Empires-resolved battles, the more expensive (and more effective) Empires units translate to more FOG2 units than the cheaper ones. Some of the cheaper Empires units may only map to 1 FOG2 unit, but some of the more expensive ones could potentially map to as many as 4 or 5 (cheap) FOG2 units in armies of nations that historically did not possess powerful units like Pike phalanxes or legions. Most units will have a conversion ratio somewhere between these two extremes.

For example, because Italian Foot in FOG2 are cheaper (and less effective) than Warbands, the unit conversion ratio for Empires Warriors > FOG2 Italian Foot will be higher than the unit conversion rate for Empires Warriors > FOG2 Warbands. Also, where different Empires unit types convert to the same FOG2 unit type, the quality of the FOG2 units may be adjusted depending on which Empires unit type they come from. (Thus, for example, Urban Militia in some national archetypes may be extremely low quality versions of the standard units. They will also have a lower unit conversion ratio as they are much lower rated in Empires points).
Because the points value ratios do not match up to an exact number of FOG2 units, there is a random element. For example, if the points system means that an Empires unit is equivalent to 1.37 FOG2 units, the system will generate at least one FOG2 unit, with a 37% chance of another one. So usually it will generate 1 unit, but 37% of the time it will generate 2.
A damping system on the chances of selecting subsequent "partial" units is used to ensure that the overall strength of the army does not vary excessively (about 3% in tests), and a unique random number generator seed number for each exported battle ensures that if you play the same battle (from the same export file) in FOG2 multiple times, the OOBs (and map) will be the same each time. (Unless you go back to the pre-battle Empires save and re-export it, in which case there will be a different seed number each time).

How does the conversion take into account Empires general skill and traits, unit experience, effectiveness and hit points etc.?
Unit Experience and Effectiveness affect FOG2 unit Experience and Elan respectively. FOG2 unit Quality is the average of those ratings.
Empires Hit Points represent current strength compared with full paper strength, so affects the unit conversion ratio.
Generals use their Empires skill rating for attack or defence depending on which side counts as attacking in Empires. General traits applicable in the regional terrain add their modifiers to those skill ratings. If there is an overall difference between the skill ratings of the opposing generals, then usually an adjustment is made to the quality of the opposing units, representing the effects on morale, physical condition and state of preparedness of the troops resulting from the better general's more skilful pre-battle manoeuvres. Sometimes, instead of a quality adjustment, the lower skilled general will have some of his troops arrive late at the battle.
Unit traits are not explicitly taken into account in the conversion process, because FOG2 already takes into account the different effectiveness of different troop types in different terrain.

Frontage
Empires units convert to an average of 2 to 3 FOG2 units, some more, some less.
We decided not to artificially constrain the frontage in FOG2 battles because it would severely restrict the tactical options – which would rather defeat the point of playing the battle in FOG2. We did not think it would be fun.
Also, as FOG2 battles take some time to play out, we wanted a decisive result, so wanted all of the troops present to be able to take part.

Therefore, the normal FOG2 map generation is used, based on the prevailing terrain in the Empires province. Hence a mountainous, forest or swamp province will result in a mountainous, forested or marshy map, which may result in choke points, but isn’t guaranteed to do so.
This does mean that playing Empires with FOG2 battles will have strategic implications, meaning that the game will play out somewhat differently depending on whether you play all the battles in Empires or not. Personally, I resolve very one-sided battles in Empires and play the rest in FOG2.
Siege assaults are left to the Empires system and cannot be exported to FOG2
Since then the option to use FOG2 difficulty settings for Empires battles was added.
Richard Bodley Scott

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dycu
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Re: FOG:E/FOG2 integration

Post by dycu »

Thanks for that. Seems great. The only concern that I have is with this frontage. Isn't that the case that in Empires if I had two armies bigger than the frontage they would be limited to the frontage number actually making them equal in strengh (assuming that they consist of the similar units in strength) but then in FOG2 the one army would be much stronger than the other because it would not be limited by the frontage?

I'm just trying to understand how it works to be able to decide which battles are worth to be done in FOG2.
rbodleyscott
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Re: FOG:E/FOG2 integration

Post by rbodleyscott »

dycu wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 8:42 am Thanks for that. Seems great. The only concern that I have is with this frontage. Isn't that the case that in Empires if I had two armies bigger than the frontage they would be limited to the frontage number actually making them equal in strengh (assuming that they consist of the similar units in strength) but then in FOG2 the one army would be much stronger than the other because it would not be limited by the frontage?
That is correct, it does make a huge strategic difference.

However, if the FOG2 battles were limited to a very narrow frontage, with the full armies in depth on the map, there would not be much point in playing them in FOG2, because they would be tactically uninteresting, and the larger army would gradually grind down the smaller army by attrition even if their units are stronger. If of appropriate composition, they could simply shoot the smaller side to death with skirmishers, replacing the units with other units if they drop cohesion.

Alternatively the battle could be fought without the excess troops of the larger army. But such battles in Empires are usually played in multiple rounds before one side is broken/retreats. FOG2 battles take too long to play out to want to play multiple battles to resolve a single battle.

There does not appear to be a satisfactory solution, so we decided to accept that Empires narrow-frontage battles would play out differently in FOG2, and that that would have strategic consequences. Empires is balanced for its internal combat resolution system.

There are ways to mitigate the issue, however, as I suggested earlier.
1) Play on higher Empires difficulty.
2) Play on higher FOG2 difficulty (with "Use FOG2 Difficulty" option turned on)
3) Play with a "house rule" that narrow frontage battles must be fought using the Empires battle resolution system.

Ultimately only you can decide what is most enjoyable for you. You don't have to use FOG2 battle resolution at all, which will deny you the tactical gameplay of FOG2 but will avoid distorting the intended balance of Empires.
Richard Bodley Scott

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