Combat Equation

PC : Turn based WW2 goodness in the mold of Panzer General. This promises to be a true classic!

Moderators: Slitherine Core, Panzer Corps Design, Panzer Corps Moderators

proline
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 679
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:03 am

Re: Combat Equation

Post by proline »

captainjack wrote:I'm near certain that the British SE units also have fortkiller - given what they specialised in that makes sense.
Yeah, it would be good to know what special abilities the SAS has (if that's who you are talking about). They aren't in my copy of the equipment list.
ThvN
Panzer Corps Moderator
Panzer Corps Moderator
Posts: 1408
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:55 pm

Re: Combat Equation

Post by ThvN »

The SAS are paratroopers, so they have the fortkiller trait. The Commando unit doesn't really have special traits, just good stats. But it is a bit strange that the US Rangers have fortkiller and the Commando doesn't.
proline
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 679
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:03 am

Re: Combat Equation

Post by proline »

ThvN wrote:The SAS are paratroopers, so they have the fortkiller trait. The Commando unit doesn't really have special traits, just good stats. But it is a bit strange that the US Rangers have fortkiller and the Commando doesn't.
Also strange that in PG Rangers had parachute capability as I recall and in PzC they don't.
captainjack
Brigadier-General - 8.8 cm Pak 43/41
Brigadier-General - 8.8 cm Pak 43/41
Posts: 1884
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Combat Equation

Post by captainjack »

LRDG and the SAS were originally ground troops used for sabotage and recon missions behind enemy lines in the desert. SAS were typically also paratroopers - so they should have paradrop attribute (I never thought to check for that, but I'm usually very bad at using paras so wouldn't normally worry about it). Anyway, blowing up fuel dumps, aircraft installations etc sounds like a perfect excuse for Fortkiller, but for some reason LRDG don't have it and nor do commandos whose speciality was coastal raiding on structures fortifications and facilities.

The availability dates for SAS and Commandos are a bit odd, as commandos were formed after the fall of France, yet are available in 1939. However, in Allied Corps you can't get any SE units in the early scenarios, so it probably works out OK in the end.
verstaubtgesicht
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:39 pm

Re: Combat Equation

Post by verstaubtgesicht »

After playing many games and reading many posts on combat mechanics, I found that for those who just want to play the game (and are not aficionados of the game mechanics for its own sake) it is a waste of time to study this - just use the combat prediction window, and that's all you need to know. Depending on your style of play and specific situation in a given scenario (i.e. whether you are playing catch up and need to conquer faster to achieve DV, or you still have plenty of time), attack only if the predicted loss is zero. If not, suppress further with arty/strat bomb. or degrade with air (especially armor and enemy arty behind the target with tactical bombers), and bring more units for a mass attack advantage (very often a -1 predicted loss turns into a 0 with an add'l unit brought to bear). Another tactic is to first attack with an auxiliary unit, then re-supress the weakened enemy before attacking with a core unit. If you regularly attack with even a seemingly favorable predictor of 5,6,7 or more to -1 eventually you will lose too much prestige, because the first losses are the most costly in terms of overstrength replacement.

My typical style of play is to move a unit for an attack, check the prediction, if you don't like it, use the "back" button to return the unit. I'd say most of the play time should be spent on this...
captainjack
Brigadier-General - 8.8 cm Pak 43/41
Brigadier-General - 8.8 cm Pak 43/41
Posts: 1884
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Combat Equation

Post by captainjack »

verstaubtgesicht wrote: If you regularly attack with even a seemingly favorable predictor of 5,6,7 or more to -1 eventually you will lose too much prestige, because the first losses are the most costly in terms of overstrength replacement.
You've managed to sum up good combat planning and good prestige management in one clear statement. Well done!
Molve
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Master Sergeant - U-boat
Posts: 535
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:06 am

Re: Combat Equation

Post by Molve »

So what you're saying is

a) you should overstrength units, and b) because of a) you should avoid combats where the predictor predicts ANY loss.

This will kind of automatically lead to "correct" (optimum) tactics, where you soften up and surround targets before attacking, yet don't waste prestige.

Yes? :)
goose_2
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Tournament Organizer of the Year 2017
Posts: 3163
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:22 am
Location: Winterset, Iowa
Contact:

Re: Combat Equation

Post by goose_2 »

Molve wrote:So what you're saying is

a) you should overstrength units, and b) because of a) you should avoid combats where the predictor predicts ANY loss.

This will kind of automatically lead to "correct" (optimum) tactics, where you soften up and surround targets before attacking, yet don't waste prestige.

Yes? :)
Yes,
one cool thing that I was not aware of until recently is that if you take a unit that you are preparing to attack you can hold ctrl shift while clicking on the unit you want to attack and you will get a prediction of the expected results, this has helped my planning considerably, and I use it often to minimize damage.
goose_2
Lutheran Multiplayer Tournament Organizer. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRHQShaOv5PWoer6cP1syLQ
captainjack
Brigadier-General - 8.8 cm Pak 43/41
Brigadier-General - 8.8 cm Pak 43/41
Posts: 1884
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Combat Equation

Post by captainjack »

Molve wrote:a) you should overstrength units, and b) because of a) you should avoid combats where the predictor predicts ANY loss.
My thinking is more along the lines of
a) Be aware of the cost of overstrength and use it wisely. It can be very powerful but the most expensive extra point is always the first one lost.
b) Attack because you think it's useful, rather than just because you are in contact.

Both approaches will help with prestige management, but the level of overstrength and risks you take on attack may well vary for each unit.
dalfrede
Lieutenant Colonel - Elite Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Elite Panther D
Posts: 1366
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: Combat Equation

Post by dalfrede »

Meant to post a link to this topic, but missed and posted to it instead.
But the info is here, so I will let it stay
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.
MaxDoge
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:11 pm

Re: Combat Equation

Post by MaxDoge »

Thanks dalfrede!
Ayou
Private First Class - Opel Blitz
Private First Class - Opel Blitz
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:01 am

Re: Combat Equation

Post by Ayou »

Maybe I've missed it, but how much is the initiative penalty when attacking a tank with a fixed turret AT (mentioned in the in game Library)?
RangerJoe
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:11 pm
Location: Here.
Contact:

Re: Combat Equation

Post by RangerJoe »

I just started playing the game but I like to overstrength the artillery if there is enough prestige as well as the fighter units at the beginning. When I played Panzer General 2, I would overstrength the longer ranged AFV units but not those with a range of "1" since those points are lost quicker.

As far as tanks vs tank destroyers, tanks have the initiative. I would guess that is because it is easier and quicker to turn a turret than to try and turn the whole vehicle, especially if your units are not in flat, open country.

From page 18 in the manual:

"ANTI-TANK
AT Weapons are designed and used primary against enemy armour. Even self-
propelled anti-tank units are less flexible and versatile than tanks, because they
are less effective against soft targets. Also, most of them are equipped with a fixed
turret, which makes them less suited for the offensive (attacking a tank with a fixed turret
AT results in an initiative penalty to the AT unit). But they excel in a defensive role, effectively
protecting choke points from an enemy armour breakthrough. They are also much cheaper to
produce, and so can be valuable assets in case resources are scarce."

So the amount of the initiative penalty is not stated there just that there is a penalty.

However on page 23 of the manual there is this about the initiative on the unit description. The symbol on the unit screen is the two AFVs under the range symbol. I presume that the computer compares each unit's initiative to get the actual difference, adjust by leadership or any other factors applicable.

"INITIATIVE
Initiative is a complex measure of unit’s gun range, optics, manoeuvrability and
training, which indicates how much damage the unit can do before the enemy has
a chance to shoot back. The bigger your initiative advantage, the more strength
you can kill/suppress before the enemy counterattacks you, and so the less effective this
counterattack will be."
PeteMitchell
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2275
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:18 pm

Re: Combat Equation

Post by PeteMitchell »

I love to see that people are still just started playing the game in 2022!!
Comprehensive Battlefield Europe AAR:
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=86481
RangerJoe
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:11 pm
Location: Here.
Contact:

Re: Combat Equation

Post by RangerJoe »

Well, I bought it late last fall/early winter when it was both on sale plus my anniversary coupon. I used to play Panzer General 2 a lot and I need other games to play when I take a break from playing a much larger game called WITP:AE!
Post Reply

Return to “Panzer Corps”