Suppression and Initiative w/Hero

A new story begins...
The sequel to a real classic: Panzer Corps is back!

Moderator: Panzer Corps 2 Moderators

Post Reply
scorehouse
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 657
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:56 am

Suppression and Initiative w/Hero

Post by scorehouse »

I understand how the Lethal Attack Hero works. I know the Unyielding Hero works great on Tanks but how? then the Fearsome Reputation Hero causing +3 Suppression to all adjacent units. should those adjacent units then be attacked and by which type units for maximization? now Initiative. I know how to use the Hit and Run Hero by calculating various units initiative and also increasing it using class Heroes such as Hartmann to increase Initiative. but how else does higher Initiative work without the Hit and Run Hero. does it benefit Attack or Defense? another unit trait? then explain the Superior Maneuver? does that only apply to like units? example, would it come into play on a 16 movement Strat Bomber vs and Infantry unit? or a Recon?
Sequester Grundleplith, MD
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:17 pm

Re: Suppression and Initiative w/Hero

Post by Sequester Grundleplith, MD »

When one unit attacks another directly in effect they both attack each other on the defender's hex. Initiative determines who attacks first and by how much (what percentage of your total attacks (10 strength unit with no modifiers = 10 attacks))

This could be wrong (and I think you can check in the combat log), but, for every +1 initiative, a unit attacks first with 20% of its strength before the unit with lower initiative can fire back. So with a +5 initiative compared to the other unit, the unit with the better initiative will attack with 100% of its strength before the other unit can respond. If this attack is sufficient to kill the other unit, it never gets a chance to fire back

Superior maneuver doesn't affect planes attacking non-aa ground targets, bc the ground targets don't shoot back anyway. Usually I'll stick it on fighter-bombers that have high movement but low initiative, so they can survive better against higher initiative fighters
Sequester Grundleplith, MD
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:17 pm

Re: Suppression and Initiative w/Hero

Post by Sequester Grundleplith, MD »

The thing with initiative is there are a million things that can affect it. Leadership gives +1, mass attack gives +1 or +2 and maybe even more with more units, but I can't remember. Hard units attacking into close defense tiles have initiative of 1 or 0, can't remember
First Strike hero technically gives +99 (or +999) to initiative, so two units with First Strike attacking each other would default back to their normal initiative values basically
dalfrede
Lieutenant Colonel - Elite Panther D
Lieutenant Colonel - Elite Panther D
Posts: 1370
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: Suppression and Initiative w/Hero

Post by dalfrede »

'Superior Maneuver' applies for all combat, but is useless for air/ground and ground/air combat.
If a unit doesn't shoot back Init does not factor in. Ground units shoot first when attacked from the air.

Use SM on a Bf110 with Mv=15, will be best fighter through 42.

Note: P38 and P51 both have Mv=16 which will be important in Pacific and other US campaigns.
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.
Sequester Grundleplith, MD
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:17 pm

Re: Suppression and Initiative w/Hero

Post by Sequester Grundleplith, MD »

To address your question about Unyielding, it turns all suppression into deflections, which are practically the same thing as misses.
When you attack, you have hits and misses, which is determined by your total accuracy - target evasion. Then the hits are turned into either kills, suppression or deflections, determined by your relevant attack stat - relevant target defense stat (hard or soft attack vs ground defense or close combat, for the most part)
If attack - defense >= 10, all hits are kills. If attack - defense <= -10, all hits are deflections. In between, hits are a mix of kills and suppression.

Suppression first off decreases your effective strength. So a 10 strength unit with 3 suppression has an effective strength of 7, ie it only has 7 attacks instead of 10. But suppression also interacts with initiative I think, and a fully suppressed unit will always retreat (though maybe not if it is at full entrenchment)

Someone else will have to flesh out what I'm missing in terms of suppression mechanics
scorehouse
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 657
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:56 am

Re: Suppression and Initiative w/Hero

Post by scorehouse »

I've been using the 410 A in the 4 2/4 3 with great results! put SM on it just to use it with Rudel, (2ATK, IGENT, LATK}, + TK,+ Rebase. It's a beast against Air, especially non fighters. and all vehicles. never realized Initiative was such a factor. Does Crippling Blow pile on with Tank Killer? "SM just to use it" as in don't leave it on the bench. not as in especially with Rudel.
scorehouse
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 657
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:56 am

Re: Suppression and Initiative w/Hero

Post by scorehouse »

Does UNYIELDING work on all unit types?
robman
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Posts: 550
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:05 pm

Re: Suppression and Initiative w/Hero

Post by robman »

scorehouse wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:23 pm Does UNYIELDING work on all unit types?
I believe so. I have used it on bombers, tanks, artillery, and infantry.
scorehouse
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 657
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:56 am

Re: Suppression and Initiative w/Hero

Post by scorehouse »

thanks to everyone who's weighed in! very helpful. anyone else please join in and expand the Hero application maximizations you like to use!
Panzer73
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 251/1
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz  251/1
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:18 am

Re: Suppression and Initiative w/Hero

Post by Panzer73 »

I have used Unyielding primarily with infantry (especially engineers) and strategic bombers. Infantry attacking a set defense will typically face supporting artillery fire, which mostly does suppression damage. Unyielding allows you to ignore that.

Likewise, defending AA usually does suppression damage to a strategic bomber. If that bomber has 3+ stars and has a Lethal Attack Hero, it will be almost as good as a tactical bomber, doing a lot of kill damage and also significantly reducing the enemy unit's ammo and movement. So having Unyielding to maximize its strike strength works well.
robman
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Posts: 550
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:05 pm

Re: Suppression and Initiative w/Hero

Post by robman »

Agree: unyielding is great for infantry and strategic bombers. Also works well on artillery in the face of counter-battery fire. A hero I always wish I had more of—I’d swap most others for it in a heartbeat.
BarbarianHunter
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Corporal - 5 cm Pak 38
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue May 04, 2021 8:40 pm

Re: Suppression and Initiative w/Hero

Post by BarbarianHunter »

scorehouse wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:36 pm thanks to everyone who's weighed in! very helpful. anyone else please join in and expand the Hero application maximizations you like to use!
I've become rather fond of Provacator in general. Add in the unique Kerscher Tank hero and butcher if you can.
https://twitter.com/BarbarianHunte3/sta ... 1719577600
https://twitter.com/BarbarianHunte3/sta ... 4406628352
DefiantXYX
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 251/1
Administrative Corporal - SdKfz  251/1
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:29 am

Re: Suppression and Initiative w/Hero

Post by DefiantXYX »

Provacator is also one of the overpowered heroes. The problem is the AI cant deal with it. There should be a fix, so that the AI gets only one time fooled by this hero, at least per turn.
You can set up cheap traps for the AI, put an AA gun next to your provacator tank und put artillery behind the tank. The AI will attack like crazy and lose everything in one turn. On the other side you can easily collect awards with your artillery for fights the AI would usuallys never do.
scorehouse
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 657
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:56 am

Re: Suppression and Initiative w/Hero

Post by scorehouse »

do u have to put Camo on the AT and ART for the Provocateur's Trap to work? seems the only analogous trap I've had great success with is on AA with camo but I have it separated by a hex from the bait unit?
VirgilInTheSKY
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:26 pm

Re: Suppression and Initiative w/Hero

Post by VirgilInTheSKY »

scorehouse wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 10:00 am do u have to put Camo on the AT and ART for the Provocateur's Trap to work? seems the only analogous trap I've had great success with is on AA with camo but I have it separated by a hex from the bait unit?
Your support unit must be in a position where it can support the Provocator unit, but not the bait. Or enemy will figure out that your bait is being supported and give up the attack. Only when they see the bait as vulnerable target, launch attack, get forced to attack the Provocator unit and get wrecked, is a trap successful. Low CD unit in close terrain, towed guns, low GD unit in open terrain are the baits AI usually would throw itself into.
Sequester Grundleplith, MD
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:17 pm

Re: Suppression and Initiative w/Hero

Post by Sequester Grundleplith, MD »

VirgilInTheSKY wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 10:11 am
scorehouse wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 10:00 am do u have to put Camo on the AT and ART for the Provocateur's Trap to work? seems the only analogous trap I've had great success with is on AA with camo but I have it separated by a hex from the bait unit?
Your support unit must be in a position where it can support the Provocator unit, but not the bait. Or enemy will figure out that your bait is being supported and give up the attack. Only when they see the bait as vulnerable target, launch attack, get forced to attack the Provocator unit and get wrecked, is a trap successful. Low CD unit in close terrain, towed guns, low GD unit in open terrain are the baits AI usually would throw itself into.
An AT unit is itself often good bait, because it can't be supported and has lower ground defense generally. So a trap like: AT bait, next to provocator tank, with a 15cm or second AT behind them works really well
scorehouse
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
2nd Lieutenant - Panzer IVF/2
Posts: 657
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:56 am

Re: Suppression and Initiative w/Hero

Post by scorehouse »

if the Provocateur has to be adjacent to the bait, what keeps the AI from attacking the bait from a hex separated from the Provocateur?
robman
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Sergeant Major - Armoured Train
Posts: 550
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:05 pm

Re: Suppression and Initiative w/Hero

Post by robman »

scorehouse wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 3:38 pm if the Provocateur has to be adjacent to the bait, what keeps the AI from attacking the bait from a hex separated from the Provocateur?
Nothing, other than not realizing that an adjacent unit is a Provocateur. (Unlike most other heroes, the AI seems programmed to "not see" Provocateurs.) So setting the trap requires using terrain and proximity to encourage the AI to attack from a hex adjacent to both the bait and the Provocateur.
Sequester Grundleplith, MD
Corporal - Strongpoint
Corporal - Strongpoint
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:17 pm

Re: Suppression and Initiative w/Hero

Post by Sequester Grundleplith, MD »

scorehouse wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 3:38 pm if the Provocateur has to be adjacent to the bait, what keeps the AI from attacking the bait from a hex separated from the Provocateur?
The provocator doesn't even necessarily have to be next to the bait, though this works more often. As long as the unit attacking is touching the provocator, it will attack the provocator.

So I've had/set-up a couple rare situations where the AI will want to attack a seemingly vulnerable gun/infantry/whatever two hexes away from the provo, but the only way to reach that unit is to move adjacent to the provocator, triggering the trap (I've also forgotten about this and had it done to me multiple times)
Post Reply

Return to “Panzer Corps 2”