Catching all the new units !

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Cherebuschka
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Catching all the new units !

Post by Cherebuschka »

Each time a new dlc come out I like to go through the many army lists and see what new composition they offer and of course what news units are available. In particular, I really like to find these units peculiar to one or two army list.

For Rise of the Swiss, I found the list of new units from a dev post on the steam forums which make the search easier :
  • Early Swiss Pike/Halberd unit (25% pike, 75% halberd)
  • Swiss Pike/Halberd Keil (Large unit with special rules)
  • Smaller Swiss Pike/Halberd block - (couldn't find it, maybe Swiss mercenary on other country list ?)
  • Later Swiss detached halberdiers
  • Landsknecht Pike/Halberd Keil (Large unit with special rules)
  • Average Pike/Halberd block
  • Raw Pike/Halberd block
  • French feudal nobility retrained as pike/halberd block - (only available in the french list of 1480-1483)
  • Albanian Cavalry - (available to late venetian army but also to Byzantine (Epirus))
  • Albanian Light Horse - (same as above)
  • Spanish Rodeleros - (Castillan list of 1476-1497 )
  • War Wagons
  • Veteran War Wagons - (Only Hussites)
  • Disembarked War Wagon Crew
  • Disembarked Veteran War Wagon Crew - (Only Hussites)
  • Artillery Wagons - (Only Hussites)
  • Polish Lancer banners - (Polish list of 1455-1500)
  • Burgundian mixed pike and longbow unit - (Burgundian army list of 1471-1477)
  • English mixed billmen and longbow unit - (All english list from 1455 onward)
  • Mounted Handgunners - (From 1440 for Papal states, 1445 for the french lists and 1450 for all german lists, maybe other too, Only one unit available regardless of battle size)
  • Dismounted Szeklers (small) - (dismounted Hungarian cavalry)
  • Dismounted Szeklers (large) - (couldn't find it in the army list, it does show on the editor)
Any idea where I could find these two units ?

I will try to expand it too to include unit such as the knights of Grenada (1232-1319) or the Byzantine heavy lancers (1155-1204) that act like cheap knight unlike other byzantine lancers.
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Re: Catching all the new units !

Post by rbodleyscott »

Cherebuschka wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:35 am
  • Smaller Swiss Pike/Halberd block - (couldn't find it, maybe Swiss mercenary on other country list ?)
Castilian 1476-1497
Burgundian 1465-1470
  • Dismounted Szeklers (large) - (couldn't find it in the army list, it does show on the editor)
These will be used in an Epic Battle that isn't in the game yet. They won't be in any army list.
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Cherebuschka
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Re: Catching all the new units !

Post by Cherebuschka »

rbodleyscott wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:31 am
Cherebuschka wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:35 am
  • Smaller Swiss Pike/Halberd block - (couldn't find it, maybe Swiss mercenary on other country list ?)
Castilian 1476-1497
Burgundian 1465-1470
  • Dismounted Szeklers (large) - (couldn't find it in the army list, it does show on the editor)
These will be used in an Epic Battle that isn't in the game yet. They won't be in any army list.
Thanks a lot for these informations

I tried to make a round of the base game more or less unique units between the hundreds it already offer, some are coming from ancient but stood enough that I chose too include them too (names can be inexact as I didn't bother to switch the game in english :P ) :

- Spearmen (Most common; Heavy foot, Average quality, protected, defensive or offensive spear, 2 models)
  • Free Cantons spearmen (medium & offensive spear, Free Cantons, N-W german)
  • Low countries spearmen (large, offensive spear, can form square, Low countries, french, Imperial German. Change into 20% Heavy Weapons, 80% offensive spear after 1275 )
  • Scottish spearmen (same as above but for Scottish from 1052 onwards)
  • First scottish spearmen (large, medium & Offensive spearmen only for scotland 1040-1051, come from ancient)
  • Welsh spearmen (same as above, appear on for every english and Welsh list from 1100 onwards)
  • Dsmtd Cavalry(Above average quality, offensive spear, Polish until 1199, come from ancient)
  • Dsmtd Knights and sergents(superior, armoured, offensive spear, available on the XIth or early XIIth c.)
  • Huscarls spearmen (same as above, scottish 1040-1051)
  • Standard Wagons/Carroccio (special unit)
- Medium foot (most common; Average quality, lightly protected, light spear, swordsmen 50%)
  • Irish infantry (Heavy Weapons, irish and allies, come from ancient)
  • Selected irish infantry (Superior, Heavy weapons, irish, come from ancient)
  • Kern (regular medium, irish and allies, come from ancient)
  • Brigand & Ribauds (Protected, no light spear but full Swordsmen)
  • Axe infantry (Unprotected, heavy weapons, Polish 1200-1319)
  • Britonnic infantry (full swordsmen, Welsh 1050-1099, come from ancient)
  • Scottish Highlanders (Warriors, protected, bow 50%, impact foot, swordsmen, Scottish from 1050 onwards)
  • Baltic levy (Below average quality, protected, light spear and Swordsmen, teutonic and Sword Brethren)
  • Baltic infantry (Warriors, protected, impact foot, swordsmen, Baltic tribes)
  • Finno-ougrian warriors (same as above but for russian and nomads list)
  • Selected Baltic foot (Warriors, superior quality, protected, impact foot, swordsmen, Baltic tribes)
  • Galwegian infantry (Warriors, Impact foot, swordsmen, Scotland between 1052-1161, from 1155 for English
- Heavy foot with heavy weapons
  • Ostmen (average quality, protected, Anglo-irish)
  • Men of the isles (same as above, Scotland from 1052 onwards)
  • Huscarls (Superior quality, armoured, all scandinavians until 1199, English prior to 1066)
  • Dsmtd Knights and Sergents (Superior quality, heavily armoured, appear from 1155 onwards)
Last edited by Cherebuschka on Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Catching all the new units !

Post by Cherebuschka »

- Archers (Most common, massed archer, average quality, unprotected, bow)
  • Welsh Archer (longbow, Welsh and English)
  • Dsmtd lituanian cavalry (Above average quality, some armor, bow, swordsmen, Lituanian only)
  • Light longbowmen (light infantry, longbow, Welsh only)
- Knights (base : Superior, Heavy armour, knightly lancers, Swordsmen, Dsmtd as heavy weapons)
  • Sword Brethren Knights(Highly superior, only available to the Sword Brethren added in v.1.01.06)
  • Teutonic Knights (Highly superior, available to several list from the baltic to the middle east)
  • Early Knights (before 1155, Armoured, Dsmtd offensive speamen)
  • Best-equiped Druzhina (armour match corresponding era Knights, added to the Rus in v.1.01.06, can't dismount)
  • Knights & Sergents from cities (Above average quality, center europe & Italy)
- Cavalry (base used : Noble cavalry in armor, superior quality, armoured, lancer, swordsmen, Dsmtd as off. Spear)
  • Sergents (Average quality)
  • Mounted Huscarls (light spear, all Scandinavians before 1155, Dsmtd as Heavy Weapons Huscarls)
  • Druzhina (light spear, Rus only)
  • (Old) Noble cavalry in armor (light spear, Welsh 1050-1099, can't dismount, come from ancient)
  • (Old) Noble cavalry (protected, light spear, Welsh 1050-1099, can't dismount, come from ancient)
  • Noble cavalry (protected)
  • Well equiped cavalry (Highly superior quality, well protected, bow, lancer swordsmen, can't dismount)
  • Baltic cavalry (protected, light spear, Dsmtd as warriors, impact foot)
  • Lituanian Noble cav. in armor (light spear, Dsmtd as archer, Bow, swordsmen)
  • Lituanian cavalry (initials, above average, some armor, ligth spear, Dsmtd as archer, Bow, swordsmen)
  • Szekler cavalry (above average, some armor, ligth spear, bow 50%, Dsmtd as archer, Bow, swordsmen)
  • Hungarian noble cavalry (ligth spear, bow 50%, can't dismount, Hungary before 1200)
- Horse archer (Most common, Average quality, protected, bow, sword Dsmtd as archer)
  • Expert Mounted Archer (Superior quality, armoured, new model)
  • Mongolian or Tatar cavalry (Above average)
  • light mongolian or tatar cavalry (light cavalry, above average, unprotected)
  • light Szekler cavalry (light cav., light spear unprotected, only hungarian)
  • light lituanian cavalry (same as above, lituanian mostly but can't be found in polish and rus list)
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Re: Catching all the new units !

Post by Cherebuschka »

There was 22 news units announced for Sublime Porte, here what I found :
Disclaimer : Moldavians and Wallachians are together since they messed the count and are basically the same model, same thing for a new Hungarian/polish unit.
This doesn't count the news models of all late MaA. Hospitaler have 3 different models each time counted as one.

Heavy Cavalry :
- Moldavians Boyars (basically a knight from before 1150, appear in moldavian list after 1400)
- Byzantine Kavallarioi (Knight in Klibanophoroi armor, unique to Byzantines (Central) 1262-1399)
- Hospitaler MaA (Highly superior MaA for the St John order, 2 different models (3 with the knights), can dsmt)
- Sipahis Kapikulu (Best equipped cavalry, can dsmt, Ottomans from 1362 onwards)
- Armoured Serbian lancers (new model, 50% bow, Serbians list until 1344)
- Armoured noble lancers (new model for Bulgarians, armenians 1080-1099, georgians 1008-1117 or Nicopolis Crusade)

Medium cavalry :
- Moldavians and Wallachian Boyars (superior, armoured, 50% bow, light spear, swordsmen, Moldavian until 1400, all Wallachians army)
- Moldavians and Wallachian Cavalry (similar to boyars but only above average and some armour, all moldavian list, wallachian are spread in several list of the balkan)
- Veteran Albanian Cavalry (Albanians only, superior, protected light spear and Swordsmen)
- Timariot Sipahis (Ottomans after 1362, above average, some armour, bow and swordsmen, can dsmt)

Light cavalry :
- Moldavians and Wallachian light horse (average, unprotected, bow, light spear and swordsmen, all Moldavians, Wallachians can be found all around the balkans or even in Poland)
- Akinjis (cheap bow only cavalry, ottomans after 1362, late venetians list)
- Djanbazan (Superior, unprotected, bow and swordmen cavalry of the ottomans after 1362)
- Balkan light horse (above average (only 12 PoA), unprotected, lancer, swordsmen, Serbians after 1345, ottomans 1362, late polish and hungarian, probably in other place as well)

Infantry :
- Dsmtd Hospitaler MaA (or knight) (Highly superior foot knights or MaA but small in size like Triarii, cost accordingly)
- Skoutatoi (late) (new model for all skoutatoi after 1155)
- Voynuk Foot (Billmen with small different textures, serbians from 1320 onward or ottoman after 1362 maybe some others)
- Clipeati (pavisiers), crossbowmen and handgunner (traded some of the usual 66% crossbow for 16% handgun, Clipeati are for late Hungarians, pavisiers for late polish and lithuanians)
- Iyalars (Average, protected, Impact foot and swordsmen of the ottomans after 1362)

Archers :
- Janissaries (Superior archer, protected, bow and swordsmen of the ottomans after 1362)
- Janissaries Skirmisher (light infantry, above average, bow, no list ? scenarios maybe)
- Janissaries Handgunners (light infantry, above average, handgun, late ottomans)

Someone told me there were a bit surprised Wallachian had Billmen and not the Voynuk foot they had in paper version, doesn't change much but he was a bit dissapointed (apparently getting them from ottomans allies doesn't count :P )
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Re: Catching all the new units !

Post by rbodleyscott »

- Moldavians Boyars (basically a knight from before 1150, appear in moldavian list after 1400)
In classification, but not model.
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Re: Catching all the new units !

Post by fogman »

Cherebuschka wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:35 am
  • French feudal nobility retrained as pike/halberd block - (only available in the french list of 1480-1483)
Sources on this one?
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Re: Catching all the new units !

Post by VenG »

I thought Janissaries could deploy stakes?
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Re: Catching all the new units !

Post by Athos1660 »

fogman wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:58 pm
Cherebuschka wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:35 am
  • French feudal nobility retrained as pike/halberd block - (only available in the french list of 1480-1483)
Sources on this one?
French Historian Philippe Contamine, Guerre, Etat et société à la fin du moyen âge, tome 1, p. 367-398, from French medieval archives.
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Re: Catching all the new units !

Post by Cherebuschka »

VenG wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:46 pm I thought Janissaries could deploy stakes?
They have access to Field fortifications like all massed infantry (except peasant) in the ottomans army list but not to stakes.

rbodleyscott wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:17 am
- Moldavians Boyars (basically a knight from before 1150, appear in moldavian list after 1400)
In classification, but not model.
True, they are much more colorfull in their lesser MaA style all in red and gold :D
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Re: Catching all the new units !

Post by rbodleyscott »

VenG wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:46 pm I thought Janissaries could deploy stakes?
They did use stakes at the battle of Nicopolis, but other forms of field defences in other battles. We could not give them a choice of different FF without distorting the lists, so we standardised on one type.
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Re: Catching all the new units !

Post by fogman »

Athos1660 wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:02 pm
fogman wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:58 pm
Cherebuschka wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:35 am
  • French feudal nobility retrained as pike/halberd block - (only available in the french list of 1480-1483)
Sources on this one?
French Historian Philippe Contamine, Guerre, Etat et société à la fin du moyen âge, tome 1, p. 367-398, from French medieval archives.
Thanks. This is very curious, but unfortunately impossible to look up at the source.
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Re: Catching all the new units !

Post by Athos1660 »

fogman wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:28 pm
Athos1660 wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:02 pm
fogman wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:58 pm

Sources on this one?
French Historian Philippe Contamine, Guerre, Etat et société à la fin du moyen âge, tome 1, p. 367-398, from French medieval archives.
Thanks. This is very curious, but unfortunately impossible to look up at the source.
What do you mean by 'impossible' ?
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Re: Catching all the new units !

Post by Athos1660 »

@fogman : Here is a quick explanation of the French feudal nobility retrained as pike/halberd block :
  • The reform that led to this unit concerns the only noblemen called in French « Ban and Arrière-Ban » (and even only a part of them), that is those who served temporarily the King and only when he called them for war,
  • King Louis XI didn’t need more mounted troops as he’d already had numerous MAA since the Ordonnance of 1445, those MAA having the advantage to be permanent. As most of them were already among the most valuable noblemen, the Ban and Arrière-Ban wasn’t interesting as a mounted troop.
  • But the King was in desperate need of an effective heavy foot on the model of the Swiss infantry he knew very well as he had fought against them, had already hired them as mercenaries and financed them during the Burgundian Wars.
  • He also was the kind of King who was powerful enough to be able to impose on them such a reform that went against their will and habits,
  • But as soon as King Louis XI died, the Ban and Arrière-Ban succeeded in undoing this reform, as the Regency and the next King weren’t as powerful. A pity for France that would have to wait for a long time before having its own effective infantry. And the struggle for influence in military affairs between the Kings and the noblemen would last too.
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Re: Catching all the new units !

Post by fogman »

If it is referenced in administrative archives instead of published chronicles, then it is impossible for 99% of people to look it up.

The relevant Contamine's passage is here:

https://books.openedition.org/editionsehess/703?lang=en

It seems to me though, that it never really got off the ground, if one goes by note 46.
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Re: Catching all the new units !

Post by Athos1660 »

fogman wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:34 pm It seems to me though, that it never really got off the ground, if one goes by note 46.
Please, read correctly the text.

The note 46 states that the report of Feudal grievance at the city of Tours against the King in 1484 doesn't mention the service of the Arrière-Ban as infantry, so the author deduces from it that the reform didn't survive the death of the King in august 1483.

Note that the in-game unit appears in the list from 1480 to 1483.
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Re: Catching all the new units !

Post by fogman »

I did. Reading between the lines. It is theoretical since there is no mention of it anywhere (and certainly not in any campaign or battle) but a particular royal ordonnance. My interpretation is it never got off the ground. You're free to think otherwise.

Whether the unit is in the game or not, I don't care. I just thought it was odd since it goes against aristocratic ethos. It wouldn't be the first army reform that went nowhere.
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Re: Catching all the new units !

Post by Athos1660 »

fogman wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:37 pm I did. Reading between the lines. It is theoretical since there is no mention of it anywhere (and certainly not in any campaign or battle) but a particular royal ordonnance. My interpretation is it never got off the ground. You're free to think otherwise.

Whether the unit is in the game or not, I don't care. I just thought it was odd since it goes against aristocratic ethos. It wouldn't be the first army reform that went nowhere.
In History, there are :
1) the facts the Historians gather. That's what really matter as they are strong evidences. In the discussed case :
- in 1480, King Louis XI undertook a reform of the Feudal service to turn it into Infantry.
- Several records of military inspections show that this reform was implemented in the province of Poitou (see note 45).
- in 1483, the king died.
- in 1484, the noblemen of the city of Tours don't complain about the Feudal service on foot.
- from 1485, the feudal service is again mounted, for example at the Battle of Saint-Aubin-du-Cormier (1488).

2) the assumptions the Historians make on the basis of the facts. These are weak by nature as not based on evidence, only on beliefs and reasoning. They are the icing on the cake (that are the facts). In the discussed case, it mainly concerns the date when this reform was undone : prior to the death of the King, at the death of the King or after it in 1484 ?

I am just here to relate the facts an eminent Historian found when searching the (always too scarce) medieval archives. I make no assumptions on Feudal foot.

Have a nice day :-)
fogman wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:37 pm I just thought it was odd since it goes against aristocratic ethos.
Their ethos didn't prevent the French noblemen from fighting on foot during the Hundred Year War. But, of course, most of them most likely preferred fighting on horseback (at least, among those who could afford war horses and equipment. I am talking here about the Arrière-ban part of the nobility, the poorer one. The wealthiest and willing ones already served as mounted MAA in the permanent Ordonnance troops ).
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Re: Catching all the new units !

Post by fogman »

You seem to think that because it exists on paper, it exists in reality. the whole thing is a medieval vaporware.
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