Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Field of Glory II: Medieval

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SnuggleBunnies
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Re: Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

fogman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:35 pm As for the description of the battle you graciously provided, I want to refer once more to 'immersion'. The account is detailed but I don't know who those people are, what war they are fighting, etc. You simply cannot appreciate a text without understanding its context, which is lacking, even, as you noted, for Chinese people.
I mean, as you noted, you speak for yourself here though no? For me, the Japanese stuff is plenty immersive, and I wish I had the books to get more of a background on Chinese stuff - what I do have is all on the 16th-19th centuries. I'm happy to play games set in areas I'm not as well read in, it makes me want to learn more. What's a mere curiosity for you could be highly immersive for someone else...
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Re: Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Post by fogman »

edb1815, I pointed out that nobody in the academic world would accept the army lists in a computer game as the cutting edge in military history research. It's not a crazy or dismissive statement. It doesn't mean they're worthless. I think they serve their purpose well, which is needed to sell the game, because this is a business.
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Re: Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Post by fogman »

SnuggleBunnies wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:47 pm
fogman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:35 pm As for the description of the battle you graciously provided, I want to refer once more to 'immersion'. The account is detailed but I don't know who those people are, what war they are fighting, etc. You simply cannot appreciate a text without understanding its context, which is lacking, even, as you noted, for Chinese people.
I mean, as you noted, you speak for yourself here though no? For me, the Japanese stuff is plenty immersive, and I wish I had the books to get more of a background on Chinese stuff - what I do have is all on the 16th-19th centuries. I'm happy to play games set in areas I'm not as well read in, it makes me want to learn more. What's a mere curiosity for you could be highly immersive for someone else...
Let me ask you, what do you think the profile of the average player here is?
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Re: Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Post by VideogameghisKhan »

fogman wrote:As for the description of the battle you graciously provided, I want to refer once more to 'immersion'. The account is detailed but I don't know who those people are, what war they are fighting, etc. You simply cannot appreciate a text without understanding its context, which is lacking, even, as you noted, for Chinese people.
I'm a westerner, and I know who the Jin and Song are and the general context of the battle. And I'm sure I'm not the only one in the community. Can our immersion balance out your lack of immersion here? FOG already covers a very wide geographical range, and it's certainly the case that not everyone feels connected to and immersed with all the cultures and states that are already portrayed.

And while Chinese historians may not delve into battle details very often, one of the first things I learned about Song historiography is how much hand-wringing there has been about the perceived weakness of the Song dynasty. This comes both in terms of military outcomes in clashes with the horse-based Liao, Jin, and Mongols, and in terms of the Song's diplomatic solutions of paying tribute and accepting a language of address in which their emperor was the "younger brother" of the other dynasty. To the extent that any Chinese or Chinese-descent players are interested in war games, isn't this enough to pique their interest?
Last edited by VideogameghisKhan on Thu May 19, 2022 4:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

fogman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:50 pm
SnuggleBunnies wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:47 pm
fogman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:35 pm As for the description of the battle you graciously provided, I want to refer once more to 'immersion'. The account is detailed but I don't know who those people are, what war they are fighting, etc. You simply cannot appreciate a text without understanding its context, which is lacking, even, as you noted, for Chinese people.
I mean, as you noted, you speak for yourself here though no? For me, the Japanese stuff is plenty immersive, and I wish I had the books to get more of a background on Chinese stuff - what I do have is all on the 16th-19th centuries. I'm happy to play games set in areas I'm not as well read in, it makes me want to learn more. What's a mere curiosity for you could be highly immersive for someone else...
Let me ask you, what do you think the profile of the average player here is?
Yes I see your point and all, I am probably not the average demographic, but Sengoku Jidai and its expansions got made, so I don't see why we couldn't be hopeful.
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Re: Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Post by fogman »

VideogameghisKhan, this is not about just me and you. It's about what is commercially viable, a decision that made regardless of what you and me think. Whether it gets published or not is immaterial to me. I'll probably buy it too. Exotica is not a bad thing.
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Re: Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Post by wzfcns »

fogman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 4:35 pm Wzfcn, you validate what I have been saying. Great battles as cultural markers in the West vs East (whether documentation actually exists is irrelevant since it is ignored and/or inaccessible). The other thing is, in the West, there are a multiplicity of documents: from different sources in terms of provenance (battles in the Levant for instance have Latin, Arab, Byzantine records, HYW have French and English etc.) or outlook (royal chronicles, local parish records, chancellery records, personal accounts, or even a tapestry (Bayeux)) or a very well developped archaeological methodology. Moreover the medieval landscape is still very much present in Europe and there is tremendous continuity which sustain interest from a cultural standpoint.

As for the description of the battle you graciously provided, I want to refer once more to 'immersion'. The account is detailed but I don't know who those people are, what war they are fighting, etc. You simply cannot appreciate a text without understanding its context, which is lacking, even, as you noted, for Chinese people.
So what you're saying is that only battles that you know and understand are worth reproducing. So what can I say? You've pretty much just about finished negating the value of the entire historical game.
Working on the Silk Road mod for FOG2 and FOG2:Medieval.
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Re: Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Post by gribol »

wzfcns wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:49 am So what you're saying is that only battles that you know and understand are worth reproducing. So what can I say? You've pretty much just about finished negating the value of the entire historical game.
But there are already many little-known battles in this game that few people have heard of.
Asian states and armies are also present here.
If the creators find time, they may add more factions, if they are interesting, diverse and contributing to the game.
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Re: Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Post by hoifa »

It is a record of the battle between the Qing Dynasty and the Joseon Dynasty in 1637.

Gyeongsang Provincial Military Commander of the Left Hŏ Wŏn and Gyeongsang Provincial Military Commander of the Right Min Yŏng led infantry troops of over forty thousand men(in fact, thirty thousand men) in total(Qing bayara(elite cavalry) is three hundred men). They advanced toward Kwangju Ssangnyŏng(16km left to the castle of the Joseon king besieged by the Qing). Min encamped on the right side of a hill while Hŏ set up camp on the left. The elite arquebus troops were not stationed on the outside but rather placed inside for defense. On the third day of the first lunar month, the enemy rushed into combat with the provincial military commander of the left behind wooden barricades. left troops infantry wasted bullets by firing arquebus at random. enemy penetrated the wooden barricades. Joseon left troops did not fight but scattered instead. After the left army was defeated, the enemy fought Min’s troops to a stalemate. Min's right infantry troops fired arquebus well, so the Qing elite cavalry could not approach it. Later, a few of Min’s troops were killed, as their gunpowder caught fire and exploded, causing a huge disarray among the men. Taking advantage of this, the 300 Qing elite cavalry attacked them brutally. The two forces of the left and right armies were immediately defeated. Both commanders of the left and the right were also struck down in the battle. -THE DIARY OF 1636

Both Joseon and Ming used Arquebus, so I hope it will be released as a dlc.
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Re: Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Post by gribol »

hoifa wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 10:12 am It is a record of the battle between the Qing Dynasty and the Joseon Dynasty in 1637.
Thats quite far from Medieval.
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Re: Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Post by fogman »

wzfcns wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:49 am
So what you're saying is that only battles that you know and understand are worth reproducing. So what can I say? You've pretty much just about finished negating the value of the entire historical game.
That's a leap. The reason we have ancient Indians units is because of Alexander. The reason we have Mongols is because they went into Europe and the ME. The reason we have Almohads is because they went into Spain. The reason we don't have Chinese is because there is no military interaction with Europeans. Interaction with Europeans = immersion for Western players.

What is worth reproducing is what the market dictates. I'm sure Slithering is open to investment from East Asian history enthusiasts should they be willing to fund such a game.
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Re: Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

fogman wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 12:43 pm That's a leap. The reason we have ancient Indians units is because of Alexander. The reason we have Mongols is because they went into Europe and the ME. The reason we have Almohads is because they went into Spain. The reason we don't have Chinese is because there is no military interaction with Europeans. Interaction with Europeans = immersion for Western players.

What is worth reproducing is what the market dictates. I'm sure Slithering is open to investment from East Asian history enthusiasts should they be willing to fund such a game.
1) We already had Sengoku Jidai. It at least sold well enough to get multiple DLCs

2) There are plenty of people not in the west who play games, some of whom have posted in this thread. There are plenty of people in the west who are curious about history that is not directly theirs (gasp!). There are plenty of people in the west who immigrated there or whose parents immigrated there who speak other languages and are immersed in other cultures.

3) Even as mainstream a series as Total War, which is not really trying to appeal to intensely historically minded people, *started* in 1999 with Shogun, at which time the most recent pop cultural reference was Akira Kurosawa's Ran from 1985. At the time, that movie was really only available on VHS and in indie theaters in cities. But Shogun sold, as did Shogun 2, as did Three Kingdoms.

4) You yourself have said you'd buy a game set in Asia. Wouldn't it be nice if we could game things that were not Cannae, Agincourt, Waterloo, Gettysburg, D-Day? I think evidence shows that the market would support endeavors off the beaten path.
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Re: Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Post by fogman »

Nowhere did I state I was against a East Asian DLC. I pointed out the reasons publishers would be reluctant to fund one.
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Re: Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

fogman wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 2:11 pm Nowhere did I state I was against a East Asian DLC. I pointed out the reasons publishers would be reluctant to fund one.
Fair. I just think the reluctance is misplaced. Not that something niche would sell *as well* but I do think it would make money. Well, we know of roughly two more FoG2 DLCs, and time will reveal the direction taken after that - whether it is FoG2 East Asia, Pike and Shot II, or something else entirely, I'll be sure to enjoy it.
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Re: Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Post by MVP7 »

I don't think there's any hard case against expanding the Field of Glory 2 to east or making it into another Standalone game like Sengoku Jidai. East Asian settings isn't that niche even for the western audience if the marketing is focuses on the Japan aspect and then there's the Chinese Steam audience that's pretty significant these days. It's probably more a question of priorities and whether some team is willing to tackle the subject.
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Re: Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Post by fogman »

May well be. Napoleonics is a slam dunk, I think we are heading there.
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Re: Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Post by companion »

I would caution against moving into East Asia for FOG. (Not that devs have shown any inclination to do so)

Operational or strategic scope might work, but FOG is a tactical scope game.
Obtaining AND verifying relevant information is nothing short of nightmare, especially for primarily English speaking devs, because for example, simply finding out that a certain type of infantryman carried a sword is not enough to give that troop a swordsman capability.

Heck, even Pike & Shot has its share of inaccuracies - I think partly due to some of the important primary and secondary sources not being available to English speakers. Making something like FOG: Medieval Asia with similar levels of fidelity would be... difficult.
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Re: Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

companion wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:33 am I would caution against moving into East Asia for FOG. (Not that devs have shown any inclination to do so)

Operational or strategic scope might work, but FOG is a tactical scope game.
Obtaining AND verifying relevant information is nothing short of nightmare, especially for primarily English speaking devs, because for example, simply finding out that a certain type of infantryman carried a sword is not enough to give that troop a swordsman capability.

Heck, even Pike & Shot has its share of inaccuracies - I think partly due to some of the important primary and secondary sources not being available to English speakers. Making something like FOG: Medieval Asia with similar levels of fidelity would be... difficult.
Except that the Field of Glory Renaissance Asia (Colonies & Conquest) army book got turned into Sengoku Jidai, and there is already a Ancient/Medieval army book (Empires of the Dragon)...
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Re: Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Post by companion »

SnuggleBunnies wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:08 pm Except that the Field of Glory Renaissance Asia (Colonies & Conquest) army book got turned into Sengoku Jidai, and there is already a Ancient/Medieval army book (Empires of the Dragon)...
If the devs want to again sacrifice some historical fidelity for the sake of ease of development, playability, and game balance then all the power to them.

The tabletop wargaming scene certainly isn't large enough in Asia to attract those kind of academic types that gets mad at every single perceived historical inaccuracy.


edit: I dwelled on this a bit and now I think rigorous historical accuracy is for the most part meaningless from the devs' business perspective.

The way I see it, most customers actually do not want historical accuracy. What they want is a familiar picture composed of popular myths, stereotypes, things of national/ethnic pride and aggrandizement, and subtle dramatization that appeals more to emotions than reason.

So yeah, Medieval Asia, if there are some sales to be made, why not?
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Re: Asian military innovations in the late Middle Ages.

Post by Yeferz01 »

I've been enjoying the new units in Sublime Porte over the last couple of days, particularly the Ottomans, however I have to admit to being a little bit disappointed with the lack of new unit models for the Timurids and Persianate factions in the game. At the moment the same models represent most Middle East and Persian armies for a span of 800 years, which makes them feel like a bit of an afterthought. I think something which would help give them a bit more flavour would be to introduce a late Persian heavy cavalry unit based on the period pictures attached, with the more 'Mongolian style' helmets and armoured horses.

Image
Image
Image

I understand that this would entail more development resources, however, I think it would go a long way towards making late medieval West Asian armies feel accurate and flavourful, and give people more motivation to play the armies of the Persian and Turko-Mongol worlds.
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