Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

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sabo10
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Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

Post by sabo10 »

So what's the deal with the AI not knowing how to retreat and regroup? I have actually seen a "1" strength Infantry, on a bridge attack my fully reinforced 15 strength infantry. I've also seen them actually marching into being surrounded. Yesterday I had one AI unit surrounded, and my AI ally attacked him and the AI retreated out of being surrounded, only to go back in to the same hex on their turn to be surrounded again. It's a shame the makers of the game couldn't pay more attention to the AI using the correct mechanics of the game, it seems the only way they can make it a challenge is to add more troops against me. I have actually seen within my visibility and not in a fog of war that when I have gotten close to a goal more AI troops just magically appear on the map out of the nowhere! I can't wait to get to the Russian campaign and see how many troops I have to kill off in that mess. It shouldn't be AI it should be AS artificial stupid.
DefiantXYX
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Re: Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

Post by DefiantXYX »

sabo10 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:15 am I have actually seen a "1" strength Infantry, on a bridge attack my fully reinforced 15 strength infantry.
That happens all the time. I dont get this suicuide attacks, it might make sense in some cases, when you waste some units to steal ammo from strong units, so you can attack them for free, buts thats not what the AI is doing.
It always better so save you units, so the enemy has at least to waste an attack move next turn, or his movement is blocked.
I have actually seen within my visibility and not in a fog of war that when I have gotten close to a goal more AI troops just magically appear on the map out of the nowhere!
Some scenarios are designed like that. The AI gets reinforcement at some point and at some places. I am not a big fan of that but sometimes it is just required.

The AI is very stupid, thats true, but otherwise the game wont work.
VirgilInTheSKY
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Re: Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

Post by VirgilInTheSKY »

First of all, there is a thing called "Aggressiveness" in map editor for each unit, if you have never checked it. It decides the AI's behaviour. At 0% AI will only attack when damage exchange is favourable, at 100% they will attack until the last point of strength dies.
Second, AI will ALWAYS go for the unit it deals most damage prestige-wise and recieves the slightest return damage, this makes enemy air forces always target your precious artillery and AT-mode AA pieces in range, and enemy unit rushing towards exposed arty/AA pieces even if that means getting themselves surrounded. You can use scripts to control AI behaviour in more detailed ways, like Harasser stance making AI trying to do hit-and-run especially useful on recon units, and there IS script for AI trying to attack and retreat to certain "resupply point" to reinforce before coming back to the fight when taking damage. Commander Vega in SCW already have this behaviour, and Rommel's 7th Panzer Division in AO 40 also.
These two should explain your questions above.

The second one is because you have entered their reinforcement zone, which is usually marked with closed Fortification line at the edge of map and high strength Strongpoints on it. These zones are put there specifically to prevent you from seeing the reinforcement spawned from no where, because game has to do that to put something on the board.
Bee1976
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Re: Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

Post by Bee1976 »

VirgilInTheSKY wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:58 pm At 0% AI will only attack when damage exchange is favourable, at 100% they will attack until the last point of strength dies.
Second, AI will ALWAYS go for the unit it deals most damage prestige-wise and recieves the slightest return damage, this makes enemy air forces always target your precious artillery and AT-mode AA pieces in range, and enemy unit rushing towards exposed arty/AA pieces even if that means getting themselves surrounded.
That behavior is one of the biggest issues considering the difficulty of the game. I would like to see the AI performing more strategical moves, using heros correctly and so on.
But maybe we will see this in PC3


To OP:
you can alter AIs behavior with various traits and challenges. "Uphill Battle", "David vs. Goliath" or "Berserk Rage" have some impact on how agressive the AI plays. But of course the AI still follows the ruleset that Virgin described.
"Slow Reaction" is kinda fun, sometimes too much fun. You will experiece the most agressive AI ever hehe
Tassadar
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Re: Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

Post by Tassadar »

Bee1976 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:15 pm That behavior is one of the biggest issues considering the difficulty of the game. I would like to see the AI performing more strategical moves, using heros correctly and so on.
But maybe we will see this in PC3
It could sometimes just slaughter the player's forces with that. If the AI properly employed it's forces in mission such as Ebro, the player would not stand a chance! :D

However, I agree the AI could learn a few new tricks:
  • Draining ammo on main targets on supporting units with those weak ones.
  • Active encirclement attempts on a small scale, not just accidental encirclement.
  • Having some other way to prioritize targets than just prestige based (maybe some variables based on supply of parts or mission specific variables - for example targeting bridge engineers first in river crossings?).
  • The biggest thing - be able to skip a move for later the same turn if no favorable target is found. Currently the AI moves unit types in a specific sequence, but some of these units could perhaps utilize a "Wait" function if they do not have a good move to choose. This would then mean that after the first series of moves another would start the same turn, opening some possibilities.
As for deployment zones, the current approach is probably the best viable one. Units appearing in the middle of nowhere in Panzer Corps 1 were even more of a pain, as spawn zones could be tricky to locate and could lead to getting surrounded. The fortifications and bunkers clearly mark this now and warn about possible consequences of overextending.
Bee1976
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Re: Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

Post by Bee1976 »

Tassadar wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:17 am
Bee1976 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:15 pm That behavior is one of the biggest issues considering the difficulty of the game. I would like to see the AI performing more strategical moves, using heros correctly and so on.
But maybe we will see this in PC3
It could sometimes just slaughter the player's forces with that. If the AI properly employed it's forces in mission such as Ebro, the player would not stand a chance! :D
Hehehe you are right. If the AI plays like a super performing player, the game will be way to hard due to the odds in forces.
But i said "more strategically moves" not "AI should play like chuck norris on speed" ;)

As u mentioned:
- using the encirclement system if possible
- using ammo and fuel ageinst the player if possible

would be nice additions to the AI
i would add the following aswell:
- using recon and recon bonusses properly
- making decisions what to attack not only based on "weakness" or "costs" but also how dangerous is the unit. I mean in 43 there is a "Neubaufahrzeug" and a "Tiger I" both exposed.
My experience is: the AI will hunt the Neubaufahrzeug
- proper use of heros
- using the supression system as an advantage

But i dont think this is easy to implement for PC2. And if they change the AI that much many players will be upset, due to the new difficulty. So it should come as an option. But that much effort for options doesnt seem to "fit". Maybe im wrong and this is easy to code, but i doubt that.


So as i mentioned before, traits and challenges effect AI behavior a lot, so maybe its the easiest way to just give us more options to tweak the difficulty.
like:
Challenge: Ironheart Add 1-5 Defense to all enemy Units (lever to adjust if picked)
same for attack (1-5) on all enemy units (i lack a name for that) and so on.

Because the AI decides after combat predictions beeing a little tougher or do a little more damage might make even not to agressive units a little more "brave" ;)
Panzer73
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Re: Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

Post by Panzer73 »

The Hannut scenario in AO'40 is a very good example on how the AI could perform. There the AI moves a group of units first towards a target (surrounding it for example), then the group members attacks in sequence, instead of the standard individual unit moves & attacks paradigm. If the Ebro scenario were that way, the player would be in big trouble.

The unit stances and missions can be adjusted in the scenario editor to make the AI perform better as well, as explained by others above.
adiekmann
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Re: Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

Post by adiekmann »

There is one simple way to greatly improve ALL AI units' performance: Give them all a Sixth Sense hero.

As Tassadar once said on his fabulous Hero Tier List, it would be an "S Tier" hero for the AI. And he is absolutely right.
VirgilInTheSKY
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Re: Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

Post by VirgilInTheSKY »

adiekmann wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:00 am There is one simple way to greatly improve ALL AI units' performance: Give them all a Sixth Sense hero.

As Tassadar once said on his fabulous Hero Tier List, it would be an "S Tier" hero for the AI. And he is absolutely right.
Which renders ambush in certain scenarios of no use. Those rainy and snowy ones.
Bee1976
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Re: Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

Post by Bee1976 »

adiekmann wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:00 am There is one simple way to greatly improve ALL AI units' performance: Give them all a Sixth Sense hero.

As Tassadar once said on his fabulous Hero Tier List, it would be an "S Tier" hero for the AI. And he is absolutely right.
Hm in most scenarios the AI doenst run into an ambush when i play. Maybe its my playstyle but, i dont see many ambushed in my playthroughs.
but if the AI simply make use of recon, this wouldnt happen aswell, without 6th sense heros on all of them (but its a nice challenge option) and the player can strategically play around it and try to get rid of all enemy recon asap.
The Hannut scenario in AO'40 is a very good example on how the AI could perform.
I cant see any big diffrence in AI behaviour on that mission. The AI tries to mob you and still takes the most valueable target (for the AI) not the best target. If you form a nice defensive line, in most cases the AI wont attack at all or terminate itself on that defense.


-------
Well most people mention Ebro and yes this is a cool fight, in my opinion one of the best missions in the whole AO series so far. It can become a big big struggle, but if you dont pick any crazy challenges or traits, Its still doable quite smoothly (on generalissimus). (I wouldnt recommend Uphill Battle combined with David vs Goliath, that creates some real ugly moments hehe)

Use aat least 3 better four small anti air pieces os to 12. never send out your planes without proper fighter protection. use 21cm and 15cm artillery pieces as much as you can field and get rid of enemy siege artillery (that units on the hills) fast with your artillery and air units.Oh and of course dont become "cocky" (hopefully that is the correct word) hehe

For example, if you do that in the north of the map, you can force the ai into a stalemate. I normally start moving my 21cm to the south at that point and hold the line with 15cm guns or "normal" artillery and anti tank.
If you have big problems on that mission, tryout "aux force" trait. that 0ne is really really really helpful on that mission.
adiekmann
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Re: Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

Post by adiekmann »

Bee1976 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:29 am
Hm in most scenarios the AI doenst run into an ambush when i play. Maybe its my playstyle but, i dont see many ambushed in my playthroughs.
but if the AI simply make use of recon, this wouldnt happen aswell, without 6th sense heros on all of them (but its a nice challenge option) and the player can strategically play around it and try to get rid of all enemy recon asap.

-------
This is why Camouflage is one of my favorite heroes. In the harder DLCs, a large proportion of enemy casualties come from my camouflaged AT, ART, and even a Tiger if I have AT and ART Support heroes on it. From AO39 onwards, you get von Blonde who gives you both. A 4-5 star fully OS Tiger doesn't even need Double Support. Von Blonde, Camo, Crippling Blow, and RF 1.5x and it will destroy even the most powerful enemy units most of the time with a single shot. Plus, the Tiger has 6 ammo so that's up to 6 units it can destroy in a single AI turn!! On ART my favorite is the 15 cm sFH for reasons you guys already know. Favorite combo is Camo, Lethal, Double Support plus a Reduced Slots, Fast Deployment, or Expert Support depending on what you've got. Chances are high that if you've been playing since SCW, you will own some or most of these heroes.

Now, if you were to play a human opponent, he won't repeatedly attack the same unit that is receiving supporting fire up to six times in a row! :? For me, it would make the campaign more difficult. Then again, my units would still be overrunning like mad...
adiekmann
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Re: Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

Post by adiekmann »

But I just realized 6th Sense wouldn't stop what I was doing - only Recon ability would, but there's no hero that grants that. Maybe there should be one? :)
Bee1976
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Re: Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

Post by Bee1976 »

adiekmann wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:07 am But I just realized 6th Sense wouldn't stop what I was doing - only Recon ability would, but there's no hero that grants that. Maybe there should be one? :)
Hehe, i would like to see a recon hero (for my verdeja ;) ).
But it the AI would use their tons of recons properly and maybe use some recon planes it would help a lot.
Camouflage is definetly an S+ Tier Hero. I luv to use them. I consider them stronger than a 21cm overrun/steamroller artillery or surrendering machines.

Talking about steamroller, i think this should be balanced a little, like steamroller give back 1 attack, not every steamroll. But ok there are 2 options to balance that if the player wants. (that half supply neg trait and that double ammo use neg trait), this reduces the capability of steamrolls a lot, but it impacts a lot of other units.
DefiantXYX
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Re: Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

Post by DefiantXYX »

adiekmann wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:03 am
Now, if you were to play a human opponent, he won't repeatedly attack the same unit that is receiving supporting fire up to six times in a row! :? For me, it would make the campaign more difficult.
Same goes for agitator hero, if this is the right word. Put a strong tank with trait next to a AA gun and the AI will attack like crazy. If you put some support fire behind your tank you can even level up your support trait very fast. At least the AI should notice the trap after the first attack.
sabo10
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Re: Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

Post by sabo10 »

Panzer73 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:53 pm The Hannut scenario in AO'40 is a very good example on how the AI could perform. There the AI moves a group of units first towards a target (surrounding it for example), then the group members attacks in sequence, instead of the standard individual unit moves & attacks paradigm. If the Ebro scenario were that way, the player would be in big trouble.

The unit stances and missions can be adjusted in the scenario editor to make the AI perform better as well, as explained by others above.
Yes agreed, I suspect some of the scenario's were done haphazardly and just used as filler scenario's
sabo10
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Re: Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

Post by sabo10 »

The game does some very stupid things sometimes. Last time I played the Spanish scenario my first two hero's were "1st aid". A lot of good that does when you aren't getting infantry
Retributarr
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Re: Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

Post by Retributarr »

You are all too "Extremely Forgiving" & too "Passionately Analytical!":

It's really quite tiresome to continuously have to contend with these 'Gengis-Khan' style-type hordes of endless attackers coming out of seemingly ... no-where... to converge on your Units... pounding away at you... one after the other... until you are dismembered or destroyed!.

What i would like to see instead... is an actual proportionality of 'Units and Hardware' that both sides historically had employed... instead of these regular huge massive hordes of enemy units converging on you and exterminating your forces. These-huge-attack-hordes... vastly reduce or even eliminate any real tactical planning in the Game... so instead!... it just finally boils down to a 'Circus-Maximus' slaughtering or survival contest.

Historical proportionality... as well as a "better" sensible scripted 'AI' mechanic-system [No more stupid suicide attacks... or counter-intuitive reflex actions]... would make a world of diffence in this PzC2-Game!. It would be great to be able to do fients and other such action devices to distract the enemies attention and focus... and as well as to be able to set-traps where possible to dismember his forces... to reduce his capacity to stalwart your efforts. Something like what "Rommel" was doing!.

If something like this was implemented... then the Game would really then have some real meaning and military-challenge... instead of this endless 'Gladitorial-Contest' business. I don't know if this will ever be possible... it may not be... as it would likely be much more difficult to then make any-kind of a Game depicting something like this WWII adventure.

Just my Opinion!.
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Re: Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

Post by Kerensky »

The ability to retreat, repair, and return to the fight is saved for very special AI units only. Nemesis were the first to get that new type of AI, but it's since spread to the occasional battlegroup.

Considering the dozens, hundreds, potentially even thousands of enemy units you come across and fight, a few errant units here and there is to be expected.

And honestly, they're probably just following the orders given to them. A shattered attacker is still trying to be an attacker. One of the biggest complaints from the other side of the spectrum is AI that retreats and repairs is too 'annoying' to deal with. People often accuse the AI of having unlimited resources, they are so annoyed by this mechanic. :)

Given the era and how warfare was conducted, if every individual unit displayed tactical brilliance and perfect insight into not just their immediate surrounding, but also into the overall and distant strategic situation, that would be a far worse offense.
Bee1976
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Re: Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

Post by Bee1976 »

Kerensky wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 7:17 pm One of the biggest complaints from the other side of the spectrum is AI that retreats and repairs is too 'annoying' to deal with.
Maybe both sides may meet somewhere in the middle ? ;)
Last edited by Bee1976 on Wed Oct 26, 2022 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
sabo10
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Re: Panzer Corp 2 and it's AI

Post by sabo10 »

Retributarr wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 2:06 pm You are all too "Extremely Forgiving" & too "Passionately Analytical!":

It's really quite tiresome to continuously have to contend with these 'Gengis-Khan' style-type hordes of endless attackers coming out of seemingly ... no-where... to converge on your Units... pounding away at you... one after the other... until you are dismembered or destroyed!.

Just my Opinion!.
I haven't tried this yet but here is one way to see if the AI just manufacture more units depending on the more you kill

Fog of War (Disable)
setany iseeyou 1 – Only for the current player.
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