Historical Unit Composition

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adiekmann
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by adiekmann »

P5138 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:55 pm I've gotten to using ahistorical color coding for divisions with exceptions for any units that are special (Galland, Dir, Azul Infantry, etc.) Those units I highlight with the red stripe version of the default skin. The color coding, plus keeping the divisions distinctly numbered (blocks of 10; so, for example, all units in the 30s are from one division, all units in the 40s are from another) keeps things generally aligned.

It's still not great, though. Color coding makes all the infantry of a division look the same, and you can only choose so many colors before the army start looking psychedelic.

One of my concessions to this ordering is the SCW campaign. Because everything is screwed up in that campaign, I've taken to not customizing units' names. Once I get to the 1939 campaign, units get divided and infantry gets added in to make proper divisions. Also, I tend to keep my Panzer Is throughout the entirety of the SCW campaign, so I can field a full tank division without foreign units at the beginning of 1939, and slowly convert the T-26s et. al. to German armor (I always use slow modernization, so it takes 3 or 4 missions to convert/upgrade every plane and tank).
My numbering is historical, not made-up. So when I name one of my infantry units "Schützen-Regiment 4" for example, that really was one of 6. Panzer-Division's infantry regiments.

So my unit names follow the German system (mostly).

For Example:

I. / Pz.Rgt. 35 / 4. Panzer-Division
II. / Pz.Rgt. 35 / 4. Panzer-Division

I. / Artillerie-Regiment 103

4. Pz.Div. / Schützen-Rgt. 12

But truth be told, it's the different camo schemes that is the primary way I identify the different units in game. Additionally, for my tanks and artillery, the 2 battalions are usually different types of tanks (e.g. one Panzer IIIH and one Panzer IVE) or guns.

Oh, I now use both Azul infantry units as the basis of my elite Großdeutschland Division. But before that, I would name it "Legión Azul" and used a cool blue camo that actually is found as a Soviet camo. But I thought it appropriate since it was the "Blue" division and it really stood out among all the others! :D
P5138
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by P5138 »

adiekmann wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:00 pm My numbering is historical, not made-up. So when I name one of my infantry units "Schützen-Regiment 4" for example, that really was one of 6. Panzer-Division's infantry regiments.
I was going to do that (historical numbering/naming), but I opted against it after I made a random general name generator that generated the names of war criminals by accident*. After that, I put in checks to specifically reject real names and I set the unit name generator to just be random numbers between "believable" values without checking for accuracy.

*I wanted believable names, but not that believable.
Raganr129
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Raganr129 »

Khancotlette wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:07 pm Oh I totally agree! Right now my only solution is using different camo, which doesn't really help regarding the infantry, because they still look pretty much the same if you don't give them some kind of completely ahistorical colours...
I've found a good 4-6 camos that I think work well for quick visual reference that kind of match the vehicle camo I use, I'll post the ones I use later if interested.

@ Khancotlette: I realize this is a bit of a necrothread at this point, but do you have any plans to continue this? Love the guide!
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Patrick Ward »

So if you were to request any additional, more practical, camo, what would it be?

I'm not promising but now everyone has things worked out it would be useful to know.

Pat.
............................

Pat a Pixel Pusher

............................
Khancotlette
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Khancotlette »

Raganr129 wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:01 pm @ Khancotlette: I realize this is a bit of a necrothread at this point, but do you have any plans to continue this? Love the guide!
Yeah, definitely! I've just been a little busy for a while. I hope to return both to this guide and historical flags mod one day.
adiekmann
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by adiekmann »

Patrick Ward wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 9:09 pm So if you were to request any additional, more practical, camo, what would it be?

I'm not promising but now everyone has things worked out it would be useful to know.

Pat.
I am not a camo expert where I can name one specifically, but for me camos that look very similar, especially on the game map, are of limited value. They can't easily distinguish one unit from another. So I like cool camos that are very different and stand out from another family of similarly colored camos.

I would like ones for infantry that are solid colors for the most part. Like you can get all black, white, families of various browns, tans, greens, etc. for aircraft and vehicles.

So my first choice would be some kind of black, like the panzer troops' uniforms.
Raganr129
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Raganr129 »

Patrick Ward wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 9:09 pm So if you were to request any additional, more practical, camo, what would it be?

I'm not promising but now everyone has things worked out it would be useful to know.

Pat.
adiekmann wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 12:44 am
I would like ones for infantry that are solid colors for the most part. Like you can get all black, white, families of various browns, tans, greens, etc. for aircraft and vehicles.

So my first choice would be some kind of black, like the panzer troops' uniforms.
Very much this. A lot of the infantry camo is hard to tell apart when playing. Most of the camos are very similar shades of green, brown, and grey, and some with red or blue helmets/armbands. I realize camera distance when playing and terrain very much affects the visibility (and is ironically the point of camouflage anyway).

We do have a pretty black/panzer troop camo (Volksturm04)

Additionally, continue the armband/helmet thing. A black base camo paired with contrasting colors (in this case, 'bright'), so black uni+white/blue/gold/yellow/red/orange/green etc would be a good starting point.

I also personally like to match my infantry camo to the vehicle camo when possible within my gameplay divisions. If we're working off the suggested infantry camo above, a black camo (or like the 'Real Panzer Grey'), with those same example contrast colors (white/blue/gold/yellow/red/orange/green) as stripes across the barrel of guns or over vehicle engine decks would work really well. Then we can work this pattern for your other base colors as well, so a whitewashed uniform/vehicle skin with a contrasting black armband/engine deck/barrel/whatever.
adiekmann
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by adiekmann »

Raganr129 wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:21 am
Very much this. A lot of the infantry camo is hard to tell apart when playing. Most of the camos are very similar shades of green, brown, and grey, and some with red or blue helmets/armbands. I realize camera distance when playing and terrain very much affects the visibility (and is ironically the point of camouflage anyway).

We do have a pretty black/panzer troop camo (Volksturm04)

Additionally, continue the armband/helmet thing. A black base camo paired with contrasting colors (in this case, 'bright'), so black uni+white/blue/gold/yellow/red/orange/green etc would be a good starting point.

I also personally like to match my infantry camo to the vehicle camo when possible within my gameplay divisions. If we're working off the suggested infantry camo above, a black camo (or like the 'Real Panzer Grey'), with those same example contrast colors (white/blue/gold/yellow/red/orange/green) as stripes across the barrel of guns or over vehicle engine decks would work really well. Then we can work this pattern for your other base colors as well, so a whitewashed uniform/vehicle skin with a contrasting black armband/engine deck/barrel/whatever.
Yes! I use the Volkstrum04 camo as well, but when you get to AO'43 the upgraded infantry units change and the same camo seems to change too on the new '43 models. Now they don't look that "black" any more. I also try to model my infantry camo after my 'divisions' camo as much as I can, but this isn't always possible. So my 2. Panzer-Division used the 'real grey' (i.e. black) camo, and its infantry component units use the Volkstrum04 camo. But I would really like a cool new, all black camo instead.

Similar "matches" of camo between vehicles and infantry would be desirable too.
Wagner0445
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Wagner0445 »

adiekmann wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:38 pm
Gfot wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:06 pm
In AO39 that's when you need infantry units. Since they build exp slowly compared to tanks and bombers, I invested heavily right away (I of course had no knowledge of the training missions that were to come later). So I formed the 2. Infantrerie-Division (mot) and that evolved into why I chose the 12. Panzer-Division as my third historical unit. I took the third infantry unit from it and renamed it and made it the second inf unit in 3. Panzer near the end of AO40. Renamed/organized 2. Infantry (mot) into 12. Panzer, and contiued 4. Panzer. Beginning with the Azul gift inf unit, I decided to use it as the slow foundation of my Großdeutschland Division (a personal favorite of mine). My two leftover FSJ units from those battles from AO40 and Crete will eventually probably be the basis of my next and last division in AO43, the 29. Panzergrenadier-Division.
How many Infantry Units did you have after creating the 29. Panzergrenadier-Division?
Also how did you do the Paratrooper Missions?
I thought about Creating the 1. Falschirm-Jäger-Division but it consisted of only two regiments until 1942 and then the 2. Regiment was split from it to form a new Division. So to even manage the Para-Missions one Unit would have to represent 1 Battalion meaning by 1942 Two Jäger-Divisions would consist of 9 Para-Units each with one Pioneer each. Meaning I would double the amount of Infantry I plan to have already.
adiekmann
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by adiekmann »

Wagner0445 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:31 pm
adiekmann wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:38 pm
Gfot wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:06 pm
In AO39 that's when you need infantry units. Since they build exp slowly compared to tanks and bombers, I invested heavily right away (I of course had no knowledge of the training missions that were to come later). So I formed the 2. Infantrerie-Division (mot) and that evolved into why I chose the 12. Panzer-Division as my third historical unit. I took the third infantry unit from it and renamed it and made it the second inf unit in 3. Panzer near the end of AO40. Renamed/organized 2. Infantry (mot) into 12. Panzer, and contiued 4. Panzer. Beginning with the Azul gift inf unit, I decided to use it as the slow foundation of my Großdeutschland Division (a personal favorite of mine). My two leftover FSJ units from those battles from AO40 and Crete will eventually probably be the basis of my next and last division in AO43, the 29. Panzergrenadier-Division.
How many Infantry Units did you have after creating the 29. Panzergrenadier-Division?
Also how did you do the Paratrooper Missions?
I thought about Creating the 1. Falschirm-Jäger-Division but it consisted of only two regiments until 1942 and then the 2. Regiment was split from it to form a new Division. So to even manage the Para-Missions one Unit would have to represent 1 Battalion meaning by 1942 Two Jäger-Divisions would consist of 9 Para-Units each with one Pioneer each. Meaning I would double the amount of Infantry I plan to have already.
All of my "divisions" have usually 3 infantry units: 1 Pioniere and 2 Wehr or Grenadier units. I usually have one multi-purpose infantry unit, primarily a FSJ unit, and name "Sonderverband xxx." For gameplay reasons the Pioniere units are "battalion" sized and named, and the rest are regiment sized and named. I haven't modeled any of my units after a Panzergrenadier unit for a very long time after it became clear that you would never need a core with as many units as you did in the PC1 GC. So, in my core army I have 2 Panzer divisions and one elite Panzergrenadier Division Großdeutschland (which the Azul units are assigned to). The Panzer division infantry are converted to FSJ as needed and then switched back after the airborne maps are done. I usually do the AO41 Crete map with only 5-6 FSJ units.

I posted somewhere a long time ago that I thought it would be cool to have a Fallschirmjäger campaign modeled after the 1. FSJ Division!
Wagner0445
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Wagner0445 »

adiekmann wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:26 am
All of my "divisions" have usually 3 infantry units: 1 Pioniere and 2 Wehr or Grenadier units. I usually have one multi-purpose infantry unit, primarily a FSJ unit, and name "Sonderverband xxx." For gameplay reasons the Pioniere units are "battalion" sized and named, and the rest are regiment sized and named. I haven't modeled any of my units after a Panzergrenadier unit for a very long time after it became clear that you would never need a core with as many units as you did in the PC1 GC. So, in my core army I have 2 Panzer divisions and one elite Panzergrenadier Division Großdeutschland (which the Azul units are assigned to). The Panzer division infantry are converted to FSJ as needed and then switched back after the airborne maps are done. I usually do the AO41 Crete map with only 5-6 FSJ units.

I posted somewhere a long time ago that I thought it would be cool to have a Fallschirmjäger campaign modeled after the 1. FSJ Division!
I plan 4 Panzer Divisions and 1 Infantry-/later Grenadier-Division. And 2 Heavy Tank Battalions.
I plan to rotate based on a tiredness/losses and distance system. The only problem I found not sure what to do about is the Kradschützen vanishing from service by 1942/43.

I don't want to convert so I will have to look for another option.

Yeah an FSJ Campaign would be great. Maybe a special forces campaign following German FSJ, Mountaineers and Special Commandos.
adiekmann
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by adiekmann »

Wagner0445 wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:49 am
adiekmann wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:26 am
All of my "divisions" have usually 3 infantry units: 1 Pioniere and 2 Wehr or Grenadier units. I usually have one multi-purpose infantry unit, primarily a FSJ unit, and name "Sonderverband xxx." For gameplay reasons the Pioniere units are "battalion" sized and named, and the rest are regiment sized and named. I haven't modeled any of my units after a Panzergrenadier unit for a very long time after it became clear that you would never need a core with as many units as you did in the PC1 GC. So, in my core army I have 2 Panzer divisions and one elite Panzergrenadier Division Großdeutschland (which the Azul units are assigned to). The Panzer division infantry are converted to FSJ as needed and then switched back after the airborne maps are done. I usually do the AO41 Crete map with only 5-6 FSJ units.

I posted somewhere a long time ago that I thought it would be cool to have a Fallschirmjäger campaign modeled after the 1. FSJ Division!
I plan 4 Panzer Divisions and 1 Infantry-/later Grenadier-Division. And 2 Heavy Tank Battalions.
I plan to rotate based on a tiredness/losses and distance system. The only problem I found not sure what to do about is the Kradschützen vanishing from service by 1942/43.

I don't want to convert so I will have to look for another option.

Yeah an FSJ Campaign would be great. Maybe a special forces campaign following German FSJ, Mountaineers and Special Commandos.
Yes, I do have three schwere Panzer Abteilungen. My "Panzer Divisions" have two tank units (I. and II. Abteilungen) each, and Großdeutschland has three, the third one being a flamepanzer but eventually a heavy tank unit too. This is all based (except the infantry) on historical composition. So each "division" also has one Flak unit, 2 artillery (should be 3 but that's too much game wise), and one Recon and AT. Most units are considered battalion/abteilung sized with a couple of exceptions. Kradschützen were really phased out after 1942 so you would be correct to upgrade them to another recon unit.

I can attach a save game file of my current core (1944) if you are interested in looking at it.
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Wagner0445 »

adiekmann wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:00 pm
Wagner0445 wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:49 am
adiekmann wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:26 am
All of my "divisions" have usually 3 infantry units: 1 Pioniere and 2 Wehr or Grenadier units. I usually have one multi-purpose infantry unit, primarily a FSJ unit, and name "Sonderverband xxx." For gameplay reasons the Pioniere units are "battalion" sized and named, and the rest are regiment sized and named. I haven't modeled any of my units after a Panzergrenadier unit for a very long time after it became clear that you would never need a core with as many units as you did in the PC1 GC. So, in my core army I have 2 Panzer divisions and one elite Panzergrenadier Division Großdeutschland (which the Azul units are assigned to). The Panzer division infantry are converted to FSJ as needed and then switched back after the airborne maps are done. I usually do the AO41 Crete map with only 5-6 FSJ units.

I posted somewhere a long time ago that I thought it would be cool to have a Fallschirmjäger campaign modeled after the 1. FSJ Division!
I plan 4 Panzer Divisions and 1 Infantry-/later Grenadier-Division. And 2 Heavy Tank Battalions.
I plan to rotate based on a tiredness/losses and distance system. The only problem I found not sure what to do about is the Kradschützen vanishing from service by 1942/43.

I don't want to convert so I will have to look for another option.

Yeah an FSJ Campaign would be great. Maybe a special forces campaign following German FSJ, Mountaineers and Special Commandos.
Yes, I do have three schwere Panzer Abteilungen. My "Panzer Divisions" have two tank units (I. and II. Abteilungen) each, and Großdeutschland has three, the third one being a flamepanzer but eventually a heavy tank unit too. This is all based (except the infantry) on historical composition. So each "division" also has one Flak unit, 2 artillery (should be 3 but that's too much game wise), and one Recon and AT. Most units are considered battalion/abteilung sized with a couple of exceptions. Kradschützen were really phased out after 1942 so you would be correct to upgrade them to another recon unit.

I can attach a save game file of my current core (1944) if you are interested in looking at it.
That would be great. Thx

Yeah but the problem is all units already have Recon units.
adiekmann
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by adiekmann »

Wagner0445 wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:14 pm
adiekmann wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:00 pm
Wagner0445 wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:49 am

I plan 4 Panzer Divisions and 1 Infantry-/later Grenadier-Division. And 2 Heavy Tank Battalions.
I plan to rotate based on a tiredness/losses and distance system. The only problem I found not sure what to do about is the Kradschützen vanishing from service by 1942/43.

I don't want to convert so I will have to look for another option.

Yeah an FSJ Campaign would be great. Maybe a special forces campaign following German FSJ, Mountaineers and Special Commandos.
Yes, I do have three schwere Panzer Abteilungen. My "Panzer Divisions" have two tank units (I. and II. Abteilungen) each, and Großdeutschland has three, the third one being a flamepanzer but eventually a heavy tank unit too. This is all based (except the infantry) on historical composition. So each "division" also has one Flak unit, 2 artillery (should be 3 but that's too much game wise), and one Recon and AT. Most units are considered battalion/abteilung sized with a couple of exceptions. Kradschützen were really phased out after 1942 so you would be correct to upgrade them to another recon unit.

I can attach a save game file of my current core (1944) if you are interested in looking at it.
That would be great. Thx

Yeah but the problem is all units already have Recon units.
Upgrade the extra Recon into different type of unit. You will lose 1 star (1000 exp), but otherwise all other stats and rewards will remain.

Edit: For some reason, it won't attach my zipped saved game file even though I've done it several times before. :?
Wagner0445
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by Wagner0445 »

adiekmann wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:13 pm
Wagner0445 wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:14 pm
adiekmann wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:00 pm

Yes, I do have three schwere Panzer Abteilungen. My "Panzer Divisions" have two tank units (I. and II. Abteilungen) each, and Großdeutschland has three, the third one being a flamepanzer but eventually a heavy tank unit too. This is all based (except the infantry) on historical composition. So each "division" also has one Flak unit, 2 artillery (should be 3 but that's too much game wise), and one Recon and AT. Most units are considered battalion/abteilung sized with a couple of exceptions. Kradschützen were really phased out after 1942 so you would be correct to upgrade them to another recon unit.

I can attach a save game file of my current core (1944) if you are interested in looking at it.
That would be great. Thx

Yeah but the problem is all units already have Recon units.
Upgrade the extra Recon into different type of unit. You will lose 1 star (1000 exp), but otherwise all other stats and rewards will remain.

Edit: For some reason, it won't attach my zipped saved game file even though I've done it several times before. :?
Oh. I always thought they lost all except 1 Star when refitted.

If you want I can give you my mail address to send the file
adiekmann
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Re: Historical Unit Composition

Post by adiekmann »

Wagner0445 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:55 pm
adiekmann wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:13 pm
Wagner0445 wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:14 pm

That would be great. Thx

Yeah but the problem is all units already have Recon units.
Upgrade the extra Recon into different type of unit. You will lose 1 star (1000 exp), but otherwise all other stats and rewards will remain.

Edit: For some reason, it won't attach my zipped saved game file even though I've done it several times before. :?
Oh. I always thought they lost all except 1 Star when refitted.

If you want I can give you my mail address to send the file
Yeah, let's do that. You can send me a private message. I tried again but don't understand why it won't recognize my zip file. Something must be broken.
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