Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by stockwellpete »

I have just done another play-test on Blore Heath. Hot Seat SP and the Yorkists won 46-0! :lol: Don't ask me!!

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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by PeterThePainter »

I was wrong about another Yorkist turn being due and the game ended with the rout percentages Yorkist 58%, Lancastrians 32%. The decisive action therefore was the Lancastrian rally inspired by Henry Percy (brining the rout percentage down from 35%) and the fact that the three flank charges carried out by the Yorkist forces in their last turn didn’t break any of the three Lancastrian units charged. In contrast a Lancastrian flank charge in the final turn resulted in a unit of Yorkists Levies autobreaking.

My opponent played very well, and I am not sure I could not have conducted a defence against such odds so well. Despite the Lancastrian losses suffered in the cavalry charge during the first three moves, once the infantry combat began there always seemed to be more Lancastrian units than Yorkist units and the terrain advantages for the Yorkist defenders didn’t seem to outweigh the Lancastrian numerical superiority.

Unfortunately, another Lancastrian general fell in combat, Humphrey Stafford. None of the Yorkist commanders fell in combat and there was no pursuit due to the high number of casualties inflicted on the victorious Lancastrians.

Points from Battle Lancastrians 5 Yorkists 1.

I believe the next battle will be Northampton is that correct? As that is in 1460 do the Lancastrians collect 2 extra points for holding the crown throughout 1459?
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by PeterThePainter »

stockwellpete wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:03 pm I have just done another play-test on Blore Heath. Hot Seat SP and the Yorkists won 46-0! :lol: Don't ask me!!


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In our version of Blore Heath a lot more cavalry survived, so perhaps I was lucky, it didn't feel it at the time. Although the cavalry did very little throughout the rest of the battle, their mere presence meant my opponent could not move as much infantry across to his centre.

I notice the battle has ended with the infantry fighting in or near the brook. Did the Yorkist's defend the stream or the higher ground behind it and push the Lancastrians back into the stream later?

And finally. Thank you for teaching me to look very closely at the terrain and spot where the impassable terrain is, there is a lot of it in this battle!
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by stockwellpete »

PeterThePainter wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:01 am
Points from Battle Lancastrians 5 Yorkists 1.

I believe the next battle will be Northampton is that correct? As that is in 1460 do the Lancastrians collect 2 extra points for holding the crown throughout 1459?
Yes, that is correct. So the overall score is 7-1 to the Lancastrians now.

Karvon - it would probably be a good idea if we kept up-to-date lists of commanders and royals on here so we can all see the casualties as we progress through the campaign. Maybe just c+p from the campaign text document and highlight in bold/underline to donate a casualty. If you agree, do you want to do that?
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by stockwellpete »

PeterThePainter wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:12 am In our version of Blore Heath a lot more cavalry survived, so perhaps I was lucky, it didn't feel it at the time. Although the cavalry did very little throughout the rest of the battle, their mere presence meant my opponent could not move as much infantry across to his centre.

I notice the battle has ended with the infantry fighting in or near the brook. Did the Yorkist's defend the stream or the higher ground behind it and push the Lancastrians back into the stream later?

And finally. Thank you for teaching me to look very closely at the terrain and spot where the impassable terrain is, there is a lot of it in this battle!
What I tend to do as the Yorkists in this battle is send out my LH after the routing Lancastrian cavalry to make sure they don't rally and come back again later in the battle. Only 4 Lancastrian horse survived the initial charge in my HotSeat game and one of these was very badly damaged and could not charge again. This allowed the Yorkists to move 2 of the 5 infantry units that had defeated the cavalry charge across to support the main infantry and take the Lancastrians in the flank. The other 3 held the crossing throughout the battle. The Yorkists defended the higher ground and then pushed the Lancastrians back into the brook.

Yes, I have made the scenarios harder by taking out contours and suchlike. I think the Yorkists missed a vital crossing point in the First St Albans battle, so scouting the terrain carefully is very worthwhile in these scenarios.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by PeterThePainter »

stockwellpete wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:27 am
PeterThePainter wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:01 am
Points from Battle Lancastrians 5 Yorkists 1.

I believe the next battle will be Northampton is that correct? As that is in 1460 do the Lancastrians collect 2 extra points for holding the crown throughout 1459?
Yes, that is correct. So the overall score is 7-1 to the Lancastrians now.

Karvon - it would probably be a good idea if we kept up-to-date lists of commanders and royals on here so we can all see the casualties as we progress through the campaign. Maybe just c+p from the campaign text document and highlight in bold/underline to donate a casualty. If you agree, do you want to do that?
I think it 7 - 2 as a Lancastrian general has fallen in both battles. We are the "peace" party after all, fighting is not in our nature!
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by stockwellpete »

PeterThePainter wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:58 am
I think it 7 - 2 as a Lancastrian general has fallen in both battles. We are the "peace" party after all, fighting is not in our nature!
OK, I meant 7-1 for Blore Heath. So it is 7-2 overall now. The Yorkists need a win then after failing to win either First St Albans or Blore Heath, which they were the favourites to do really.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by edb1815 »

Well played game to Peter. He summarized the battle quite nicely. On Pete's point about the LH, I did start them moving that way but the Lancastrian LH was headed to the opposite flank, so I countered with my lights. I think the LH could have helped hold up the Lancastrian cavalry but may have gotten routed in the process! There were too many units left.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by PeterThePainter »

In Pete's post I can see three units of Lancastrian cavalry on the right. I had 6 left, one of which was fragged but it did rally up to steady. None of those that routed rallied they all fled the field.

At that point I had no thought that I would win the battle it was a question of could I hang on for a draw. I thought of not crossing the stream and defending against a Yorkist attack but decided that the right and centre of the Yorkist line contained a number of Levies which I might easily beat, perhaps routing 30% of the Yorkists and ensuring there was no pursuit. That was wrong the Levies actually fought quite well, at least initially, but they did tend to fold quickly once they started losing, or I was able to concentrate more than one unit on them. My idea with my prickers was to get to the Yorkist rear and be a nuisance. I was also happy if I lost both my LH for one of the Yorkist two as then there would be no pursuit by the Yorkists.

Looking back on the battle maybe my opponent could have joined combat all along the line once I attacked. As it was, I was able to concentrate on fighting a few of his units at a time and them move onto the next group. But that would have necessitated giving up some of the defensive terrain and fighting on less favourable ground, so I do not know if that would have worked. The game was very close to a draw without the rally of the MaA on the last turn the Lancastrians would have needed to rout another Yorkist unit and time was running out.

I might well post the game as a challenge taking the Yorkist side to see how that feels, if anyone fancies watching their cavalry commit suicide feel free to take it up. Although the Yorkists won the real battle playing through the game, I realised how difficult it is to overcome a numerical inferiority.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by Karvon »

EPISODE FIVE 1460: NORTHAMPTON

The Yorkists assemble their army in London and then march north picking up more supporters on the way. The Lancastrian army offers battle near Northampton.

Northampton (July 1460)

Lancastrians – choose 3 commanders, Yorkists – choose 3 commanders, one must be the royal character Edward Plantagenet, Earl of March, if he is available, otherwise another royal character must be chosen.

a) Outcomes if there is a Lancastrian monarch at the start of the battle

1) Draw/Lancastrian victory – Lancastrian rule consolidated. Go to episode 9.
2) Yorkist victory – King Henry VI is captured and imprisoned. His mental health is very poor. Succession Event. An Act of Accord is passed and it is decided that Edward Plantagenet, Earl of March will succeed Henry VI on his death - a situation of dual power now pertains. Margaret of Anjou and Prince Edward flee to Scotland. Go to episode 6.

and our commanders selected are...

Lancastrian Doyley50

Yorkist stockwellpete

Chit Count 1 each now.

Here's the current scoring summary:
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by stockwellpete »

Challenge issued for Northampton 1460, password Doyley50.

Yorkist commanders
C-in-C - Edward Plantagenet, Earl of March
2 - Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury
3 - William Neville, Lord Fauconberg
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by stockwellpete »

Our game is under way.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by stockwellpete »

Not good news for the Lancastrians as their right flank have legged it at the beginning. Still raining so no missile fire yet and I am just getting my Yorkists into position to begin the assault.

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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by stockwellpete »

Yorkists 11-0 ahead, but Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury has been killed.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by stockwellpete »

Moving towards the end now and a clear Yorkist victory. Very tough job for the Lancastrians after their right flank departed at the start. Stafford, their number 2 commander has been killed as well.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by stockwellpete »

The battle has ended with a 48-15 victory for the Yorkists. So that is 5 points for the Yorkists. I also killed one of the Lancastrian commanders during the battle giving me an extra 1 point. Alan gave the name as Stafford, but I see that he perished in an earlier battle, so I think we need to come up with a different commander. Because I lost less than 30% and my two LH were intact at the end, I can claim a pursuit as well. I want to execute the captured leader but again there is an issue. I was given the name Beaufort by Alan, but I see that Edmund Beaufort also died in an earlier battle. There is a second Beaufort available - Henry Beaufort, Duke of Somerset who is one of the Lancastrian royal candidates. So we will need some sort of adjudication or negotiation here with Karvon. If it is decided that I have captured and executed Henry Beaufort then the Yorkists lose 2 points (public hostility) so that would make the final points tally 4-1 to the Yorkists.

The Lancastrians killed Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury to get 1 point.

Also, the victory conditions for Northampton are as follows . . .

2) Yorkist victory – King Henry VI is captured and imprisoned. His mental health is very poor. Succession Event. An Act of Accord is passed and it is decided that Edward Plantagenet, Earl of March will succeed Henry VI on his death - a situation of dual power now pertains. Margaret of Anjou and Prince Edward flee to Scotland. Go to episode 6.

So that means there are no Crown points awarded for 1460.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by PeterThePainter »

A suggestion for future battles:

Each side posts details of their commanders on the forum at the start of the battle, six pairs of eyes are more likely to spot commanders who have risen from the dead.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by stockwellpete »

PeterThePainter wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:03 pm A suggestion for future battles:

Each side posts details of their commanders on the forum at the start of the battle, six pairs of eyes are more likely to spot commanders who have risen from the dead.
Yes, or we could post lists up of who is still available before each battle is allocated to the two players. Lancastrians have lost 4 leaders already (Yorkists just 1), so there could come a point where the Lancastrians are forced to pick their royal candidates as leaders.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by Karvon »

As the two dead nobles had already been killed, I'm simply going to strike off the next two nobles from the Lancastrian list in their place:

3) Henry Percy, Earl of Northumberland (1393-1455) - available 1455 to 1465.
4) John Clifford, Baron, Lord of Skipton (1435-61)    – available 1459 to 1465.

I had included a list of dead nobles in the results table, but apparently that was overlooked in preparing the battle.

Unless required by the scenario, I don't think it prudent to risk those in the succession order in battle. particularly as the scenarios are not simply standard engagements, but can favor one side or the other, and I suspect most of us are not all that familiar with the details of each battle or how it has been set up in FOG2.

I will post up the next battle and current results a bit later.

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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by stockwellpete »

Karvon wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:42 pm As the two dead nobles had already been killed, I'm simply going to strike off the next two nobles from the Lancastrian list in their place:

3) Henry Percy, Earl of Northumberland (1393-1455) - available 1455 to 1465.
4) John Clifford, Baron, Lord of Skipton (1435-61)    – available 1459 to 1465.

I had included a list of dead nobles in the results table, but apparently that was overlooked in preparing the battle.

Unless required by the scenario, I don't think it prudent to risk those in the succession order in battle. particularly as the scenarios are not simply standard engagements, but can favor one side or the other, and I suspect most of us are not all that familiar with the details of each battle or how it has been set up in FOG2.

I will post up the next battle and current results a bit later.

Karvon
OK, that's fine with me. I don't think that Northampton is a battle that the Lancastrians would want to risk a royal as C-in-C as it is one of the toughest for them in the campaign.
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