Slitherine

Posted: **Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:05 pm**

I haven't had time to read all the messages in this thread but an update on where we are.

The review identified a number of users whose activity was suspect. We found that of the 5 of them. The thing that surprised us, was when we looked in to banning them, 4 had already been banned, one of which was dkalenda, the other 3 in July. So the system was actually working, but the banning was delayed due to workload and pressure of COVID. The other user, was actually playing against his brother, which was verified and they were both messing around so was let off.

However having said this we do feel like the system needs an overhaul. It is going to be a lot less tolerant in future so you will get a lot more warnings a lot earlier, and automatic temporary bans will be enforced if you are a repeat offender. We are completely taking away the manual part of the process, which is what caused the problem in this case. The ban was not enforced for a number of weeks after it happened due to the team being overloaded with other tasks.

The current manual system was too forgiving as we let people off if they had a good excuse. The new system being automated will not allow this. You will be required to make your connection work to participate and the automated system will not give any opportunity to offer an excuse. There will also be no way for support to overrule it so complaining to them will not be possible.

The system will give temporary bans of increasing size until the user becomes permanently banned.

The system will be monitoring the server availability and will not punish people for excess downloads if there was an issue with the server. If there is an issue between you and the server, this is unfortunately your problem to resolve. There is no other way to make it fair for everyone.

The new system will also remove people from tournaments automatically and award their opponents a BYE and prevent them from joining tournaments while banned.

We expect the new system to nip any potential cheating in the bud. We're working on the system now but do not have an ETA yet. For now we'll continue to manually police matters but hopefully this raised awareness by players that we are watching, will mean it self polices.

Posted: **Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:35 pm**

IainMcNeil wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:05 pm
The review identified a number of users whose activity was suspect. We found that of the 5 of them. The thing that surprised us, was when we looked in to banning them, 4 had already been banned, one of which was dkalenda, the other 3 in July. So the system was actually working, but the banning was delayed due to workload and pressure of COVID. The other user, was actually playing against his brother, which was verified and they were both messing around so was let off.

The good news is it appears the only digital league member cheating was dkalenda. That should reassure many. And based on the hundreds of digital league games I have played, dkalenda was the only one I ever thought was cheating. Other than my very strong belief dkalenda had been cheating for several seasons, it appears our league has been cheater free. And again that is very good news.

Harvey

Posted: **Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:01 pm**

I assume hundreds of games are going on each month. To find only 4 reloading is reassuring. That is a pretty small number.

Myself, I have internet satellite but loss of internet is not really a problem from my experience. The problem is apparently reloading and even if internet connection is lost, reloading is not necessary. Waiting for the internet to come back up, should allow continuation of the game without reloading. I assume that I could even wait for days if necessary to continue the game without making a reload necessary. It seems the greatest risk of a mandatory reload would be loss of power or a computer failure shutting down the computer. And power failure is usually related to thunderstorms but not always and myself, I usually will not start a turn if weather is bad. Those are possibilities but should be very rare. It would probably be helpful to have a sticky post somewhere detailing how players can ensure they reduce their risk of getting into a situation requiring a reload.

Still, I am in MikeC's camp when it comes to giving us feedback at the end of each turn. We can correlate a reload with the action which has just taken place. And when the game is over and everyone knows no reload took place, every one is happy that a clean game was just completed. I suspect I am just happier knowing from my own observation that the game was clean.

PS: Out of unhealthy curiosity, what percentage of people reloaded? I am guessing under 1 percent.

Posted: **Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:32 pm**

The thing that surprised us, was when we looked in to banning them, 4 had already been banned, one of which was dkalenda, the other 3 in July.

Can one assume that those other three have received a permanent ban? I hope so.

Also, I like your new system. It's the player's responsibility to have a relatively stable connection.

Posted: **Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:03 pm**

IainMcNeil wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:05 pm I haven't had time to read all the messages in this thread but an update on where we are.

The review identified a number of users whose activity was suspect. We found that of the 5 of them. The thing that surprised us, was when we looked in to banning them, 4 had already been banned, one of which was dkalenda, the other 3 in July. So the system was actually working, but the banning was delayed due to workload and pressure of COVID. The other user, was actually playing against his brother, which was verified and they were both messing around so was let off.

However having said this we do feel like the system needs an overhaul. It is going to be a lot less tolerant in future so you will get a lot more warnings a lot earlier, and automatic temporary bans will be enforced if you are a repeat offender. We are completely taking away the manual part of the process, which is what caused the problem in this case. The ban was not enforced for a number of weeks after it happened due to the team being overloaded with other tasks.

The current manual system was too forgiving as we let people off if they had a good excuse. The new system being automated will not allow this. You will be required to make your connection work to participate and the automated system will not give any opportunity to offer an excuse. There will also be no way for support to overrule it so complaining to them will not be possible.

The system will give temporary bans of increasing size until the user becomes permanently banned.

The system will be monitoring the server availability and will not punish people for excess downloads if there was an issue with the server. If there is an issue between you and the server, this is unfortunately your problem to resolve. There is no other way to make it fair for everyone.

The new system will also remove people from tournaments automatically and award their opponents a BYE and prevent them from joining tournaments while banned.

We expect the new system to nip any potential cheating in the bud. We're working on the system now but do not have an ETA yet. For now we'll continue to manually police matters but hopefully this raised awareness by players that we are watching, will mean it self polices.

Perfect. I hope everyone is looking forward to Season 9 which starts on October 1st.

Posted: **Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:04 pm**

desertedfox wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:32 pm
The thing that surprised us, was when we looked in to banning them, 4 had already been banned, one of which was dkalenda, the other 3 in July.
Can one assume that those other three have received a permanent ban? I hope so.

Also, I like your new system. It's the player's responsibility to have a relatively stable connection.

That is the only bit of the otherwise reassuring update that worried me.

The fact that "Repeat offenders" only get bans of increasing length after they have been caught is a huge No.No.

If you are a repeat offender you should be permanently banned. End of story.

Better Pete but certainly not "perfect".

Posted: **Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:15 pm**

devoncop wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:04 pm
That is the only bit of the otherwise reassuring update that worried me.

The fact that "Repeat offenders" only get bans of increasing length after they have been caught is a huge No.No.

If you are a repeat offender you should be permanently banned. End of story.

Better Pete but certainly not "perfect".

Again, I think you are muddling two things up. Slitherine (and the FOG2DL) has zero tolerance for cheating. If it is proven you are gone, permanently. Additionally, players repeatedly flagged for excess downloads that are not cheating (e.g. poor internet, thunderstorms etc) will also face incremental sanctions until they too are suspended. I don't think Iain is saying that if you are caught cheating you will initially just get a tap on the wrist.

Posted: **Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:04 pm**

stockwellpete wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:15 pm
devoncop wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:04 pm
That is the only bit of the otherwise reassuring update that worried me.

The fact that "Repeat offenders" only get bans of increasing length after they have been caught is a huge No.No.

If you are a repeat offender you should be permanently banned. End of story.

Better Pete but certainly not "perfect".
Again, I think you are muddling two things up. Slitherine (and the FOG2DL) has zero tolerance for cheating. If it is proven you are gone, permanently. Additionally, players repeatedly flagged for excess downloads that are not cheating (e.g. poor internet, thunderstorms etc) will also face incremental sanctions until they too are suspended. I don't think Iain is saying that if you are caught cheating you will initially just get a tap on the wrist.

"Automatic bans of increasing length if you are a repeat offender" is pretty unambiguous given that folk who are not cheating but are victims of "poor internet,thunderstorms etc" are in no sense "offenders" he can only be talking of actual cheats.

There should be no such second chance for such people.

Posted: **Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:22 pm**

Thunderbird wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:55 pm
desertedfox wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:00 pm Saves are done server side, so there is no chance of cheating when doing that.
Perhaps implement a feature where periodically the client 'saves game' to the server without notification to the player. Those 'saves' could then be compared to later turns to detect differences if someone save scummed.A cheating player could never be sure of the integrity of their cheat...... the code is already there for partial turn saves.....

Great suggestion!

Posted: **Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:26 pm**

IainMcNeil wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:05 pm I haven't had time to read all the messages in this thread but an update on where we are.

The review identified a number of users whose activity was suspect. We found that of the 5 of them. The thing that surprised us, was when we looked in to banning them, 4 had already been banned, one of which was dkalenda, the other 3 in July. So the system was actually working, but the banning was delayed due to workload and pressure of COVID. The other user, was actually playing against his brother, which was verified and they were both messing around so was let off.

However having said this we do feel like the system needs an overhaul. It is going to be a lot less tolerant in future so you will get a lot more warnings a lot earlier, and automatic temporary bans will be enforced if you are a repeat offender. We are completely taking away the manual part of the process, which is what caused the problem in this case. The ban was not enforced for a number of weeks after it happened due to the team being overloaded with other tasks.

The current manual system was too forgiving as we let people off if they had a good excuse. The new system being automated will not allow this. You will be required to make your connection work to participate and the automated system will not give any opportunity to offer an excuse. There will also be no way for support to overrule it so complaining to them will not be possible.

The system will give temporary bans of increasing size until the user becomes permanently banned.

The system will be monitoring the server availability and will not punish people for excess downloads if there was an issue with the server. If there is an issue between you and the server, this is unfortunately your problem to resolve. There is no other way to make it fair for everyone.

The new system will also remove people from tournaments automatically and award their opponents a BYE and prevent them from joining tournaments while banned.

We expect the new system to nip any potential cheating in the bud. We're working on the system now but do not have an ETA yet. For now we'll continue to manually police matters but hopefully this raised awareness by players that we are watching, will mean it self polices.

Thank you Iain! It is good to know our community appears to be far more honest than they thought

Posted: **Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:29 pm**

devoncop wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:04 pm "Automatic bans of increasing length if you are a repeat offender" is pretty unambiguous given that folk who are not cheating but are victims of "poor internet,thunderstorms etc" are in no sense "offenders" he can only be talking of actual cheats.

There should be no such second chance for such people.

Well, I think the "offence" he is talking here about is excess downloads, which is not necessarily the same as cheating. The whole thrust of Iain's post is to say Slitherine are tightening things up, not relaxing them. He has not said anywhere that Slitherine have abandoned their zero tolerance of cheating, has he?

Richard, can you clarify please?

Posted: **Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:47 pm**

I should have been clear. Any proven cheating is an immediate permanent ban. Any system of cheat detection will have false positives and no way to be sure if someone is cheating or not. The temporary bans of increasingly length are to remove people with behaviour that matches cheating, but could be for other reasons.

Just to be crystal clear, there is no way to prevent this system from banning some people who are not cheating, just unlucky.

Some people just have other issues like a bad connection or the game crashed. This is why you get false positive and we are not prepared to brand people who have had these issues cheats, we just remove them from the player pool. This is also why we give them increasing ban lengths and not an immediate permanent ban.

Posted: **Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:09 pm**

Okay Iain

Given the system is moving to a wholly automated one I guess that is as good as we are going to get.

Thanks for the clarification.

Posted: **Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:02 pm**

I categorically deny using this method to unfairly grab a disproportionate number of Wooden Spoons in the DL.

I know there are rumors that the number of last place finishes and being regulated to a lower division could not be achieved through natural incompetence but rest assured each and every humiliating defeat is duly earned through bad planning and worse execution.

BDH

Posted: **Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:05 pm**

Barrold713 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:02 pm I categorically deny using this method to unfairly grab a disproportionate number of Wooden Spoons in the DL.

I know there are rumors that the number of last place finishes and being regulated to a lower division could not be achieved through natural incompetence but rest assured each and every humiliating defeat is duly earned through bad planning and worse execution.

BDH

Believe me Barry

At the speed my player rating is declining you want to be checking your rear view mirror......I may be fighting you for your collection of cooking utensils very soon..........

Posted: **Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:49 pm**

Division D

Bluefin (Syracuse) defeats ggarynorman (Indo-Greek) 55-29.

Thanks for the game!

Posted: **Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:10 pm**

IainMcNeil wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:05 pm I haven't had time to read all the messages in this thread but an update on where we are.

The review identified a number of users whose activity was suspect. We found that of the 5 of them. The thing that surprised us, was when we looked in to banning them, 4 had already been banned, one of which was dkalenda, the other 3 in July. So the system was actually working, but the banning was delayed due to workload and pressure of COVID. The other user, was actually playing against his brother, which was verified and they were both messing around so was let off.

However having said this we do feel like the system needs an overhaul. It is going to be a lot less tolerant in future so you will get a lot more warnings a lot earlier, and automatic temporary bans will be enforced if you are a repeat offender. We are completely taking away the manual part of the process, which is what caused the problem in this case. The ban was not enforced for a number of weeks after it happened due to the team being overloaded with other tasks.

The current manual system was too forgiving as we let people off if they had a good excuse. The new system being automated will not allow this. You will be required to make your connection work to participate and the automated system will not give any opportunity to offer an excuse. There will also be no way for support to overrule it so complaining to them will not be possible.

The system will give temporary bans of increasing size until the user becomes permanently banned.

The system will be monitoring the server availability and will not punish people for excess downloads if there was an issue with the server. If there is an issue between you and the server, this is unfortunately your problem to resolve. There is no other way to make it fair for everyone.

The new system will also remove people from tournaments automatically and award their opponents a BYE and prevent them from joining tournaments while banned.

We expect the new system to nip any potential cheating in the bud. We're working on the system now but do not have an ETA yet. For now we'll continue to manually police matters but hopefully this raised awareness by players that we are watching, will mean it self polices.

Iain, that's great. Thanks for a clear and comprehensive explanation. I really can't see how Slitherine could do any more than this, and I, for one, am grateful.

Let's hope that we, an honourable and honest community, can move on from this with confidence. And then get back to arguing about battle sizes and RNG and Brexit.

Best Wishes

Mike

Posted: **Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:31 am**

The new system being automated will not allow this. You will be required to make your connection work to participate and the automated system will not give any opportunity to offer an excuse.

So let me understand this properly, if a person has a power outage and their computer crashes requiring a reload, that person receives a warning? A second power outage produces a warning or a suspension?

Just as an observation, people do not have the ability to control power outages or computer failures. And the reality is people don't have control over their modem/internet connection. However a failure in either modem/internet connection really should not require a reload, thus not a problem.

Posted: **Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:18 am**

Division B

paulmcneil (Parthians) drew with Najanaja (Ancient Brits and Romans) 55:54 game run out of turns

(2-2)

Posted: **Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:04 am**

Jagger2002 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:31 am So let me understand this properly, if a person has a power outage and their computer crashes requiring a reload, that person receives a warning? A second power outage produces a warning or a suspension?

I think we we will have to wait for the fine detail of how exactly Slitherine are going to calibrate their upgraded system. At the moment we just have the broad outline, which is very welcome. Personally, I hope there is scope in the new system for a player just to get a warning PM (without any other sanction) the very first time they re-load their turn for what might be a completely legitimate reason. At least then a player will know that the system is monitoring their behaviour. And maybe, after 6 months or so, an isolated occurrence could be wiped from the system altogether, because I think most regular players have had to re-load at some time or other.

Slitherine

The Dustbin

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Re: Classical Antiquity: winners post your results here . . .

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Re: Late Antiquity: winners post your results here . . .

Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .