Slitherine

Stauffenberg wrote:One way to solve this could be to let the Axis start with 5 step air units for Finland, Romania and Hungary and no added Russian air units.

This means it costs about the cost of 1 German fighter (90 vs 100) to get all Axis minor air units up to full strength. Even though it's better to build a German fighter than building Axis minor fighters, it's probably a good idea to upgrade the Axis minor fighters. A 5 step fighter is not very useful so in order to use them you build them to 10 steps.

I think such a solution could be added without changing game balance much. The Axis minor fighter units will be at least as good as Russian fighters so they're worth having.

All I need to do is to make some code about adding the fighters at 5 steps when they join the Axis instead of 10. 5 step air units at start is probably more accurate to each Axis minor 1941 OOB. That they can be increased to 10 steps simulates how the air force increased over the years.

How do you like this suggestion?

This sounds good to me. Also, I recommend that each of these fighters be initially placed in a hex with supply level 5 so that when their corresponding country activates that they can immediately be built up to 10-step. The only concern I have is if a country activates (e.g., Finland) after Germany is at war with Russia then the Russians could possibly destroy the 5-step fighter before the axis player has had a chance to build it up.

rkr1958 wrote:This sounds good to me. Also, I recommend that each of these fighters be initially placed in a hex with supply level 5 so that when their corresponding country activates that they can immediately be built up to 10-step. The only concern I have is if a country activates (e.g., Finland) after Germany is at war with Russia then the Russians could possibly destroy the 5-step fighter before the axis player has had a chance to build it up.

I agree - see my comments on Finnish activation.

Finland only has supply level 3 since there is no rail link to Berlin. But I've updated the game code so Finland will join before or on the start of Barbarossa. So it's possible to build the Finnish fighter up to better strength before the Russian fighters can even engage it.

The Hungarian fighter is added in the next beta version code. I've placed the starting values in general.txt for the Finnish, Romanian and Hungarian fighters. Currently they are at 5 steps. If set to 0 steps the fighter won't spawn.

I've also updated the code so you can use the new rules on existing games. If you've not come yet to the time when any of the Axis minor powers have joined then the at start Finnish and Romanian fighter will be deleted (on the turn they join the Axis) and the spawned one will be added instead. If these countries have already joined then nothing will happen.

All scenarios are updated so the at start Finnish and Romanian fighters are removed. They will be spawned instead together with the Hungarian fighter. All 3 at 5 steps.

We will release these changes as soon as Paul has made new images for the Hungarian fighter. Currently the images are German ones.

as the minor fighters worse the german figthers they should cost less to go up to 10 steps then build a new german fighter. They should starts at 6 or even at 7 steps.

Stauffenberg wrote:Finland only has supply level 3 since there is no rail link to Berlin.

Seems like a good change in this thread. But, while German troops in FInland certainly should have supply level 3, should not the Finns, drawing supply from Helsinki and not Berlin after all, be at supply level 5? Maybe it is hard to code different levels for minors and major powers, I dont know.

trulster wrote: Seems like a good change in this thread. But, while German troops in FInland certainly should have supply level 3, should not the Finns, drawing supply from Helsinki and not Berlin after all, be at supply level 5? Maybe it is hard to code different levels for minors and major powers, I dont know.

Yes, its always seemed strange to me that the Finnish Inf have such restricted movement compared to the Russians, even though they were in fact very mobile - especially in winter..... Perhaps Supply Level 4 for Finland?

Helsinki is not a major supply source in the game. All minor power units get supply from their controlling major power. E. g. Polish units have supply level 3 since there is not link to Paris or London. Major supply sources are major power capitals (primary if they control two). Other cities will only provide supply level 3.

Romanian and Hungarian units draw supply from Berlin too. But these units have rail link to Berlin so they will have the same supply level as German units.

Having different supply sources for different countries will be a big change to code and it could introduce many unwanted bugs. Right now the supply determination system is very simple and the code is not so long. But with minor power capitals providing supply then we have a different way of calculating supply. It's possible to do it, but you can get many strange situations. One example is that the Russians manage to cut Bucharest off from some Romanian units. That means these Romanian units will get a lower supply level even though these units have a rail link to Berlin.

The main reason the units in Norway and Finland have a lower supply level is that supplies have to be sent from Berlin via ships to Oslo and Helsinki. Sea supply is only supply level 3 and not 5. If you capture Leningrad you open up a rail link to Finland and you get better supply there (level 4). That means you can move faster with your units. This is one good reason to try to capture Leningrad as the Axis.

The northern front wasn't very mobile and I feel the current situation is not that ahistorical. It's not like the units can't move. Corps units move 3 hexes instead of 4.

Stauffenberg wrote:Helsinki is not a major supply source in the game. All minor power units get supply from their controlling major power. E. g. Polish units have supply level 3 since there is not link to Paris or London. Major supply sources are major power capitals (primary if they control two). Other cities will only provide supply level 3.

Romanian and Hungarian units draw supply from Berlin too. But these units have rail link to Berlin so they will have the same supply level as German units.

Having different supply sources for different countries will be a big change to code and it could introduce many unwanted bugs. Right now the supply determination system is very simple and the code is not so long. But with minor power capitals providing supply then we have a different way of calculating supply. It's possible to do it, but you can get many strange situations. One example is that the Russians manage to cut Bucharest off from some Romanian units. That means these Romanian units will get a lower supply level even though these units have a rail link to Berlin.

The main reason the units in Norway and Finland have a lower supply level is that supplies have to be sent from Berlin via ships to Oslo and Helsinki. Sea supply is only supply level 3 and not 5. If you capture Leningrad you open up a rail link to Finland and you get better supply there (level 4). That means you can move faster with your units. This is one good reason to try to capture Leningrad as the Axis.

The northern front wasn't very mobile and I feel the current situation is not that ahistorical. It's not like the units can't move. Corps units move 3 hexes instead of 4.

I vote to keep supply levels the way they are now.

Stauffenberg wrote:Helsinki is not a major supply source in the game. All minor power units get supply from their controlling major power. E. g. Polish units have supply level 3 since there is not link to Paris or London. Major supply sources are major power capitals (primary if they control two). Other cities will only provide supply level 3.

Romanian and Hungarian units draw supply from Berlin too. But these units have rail link to Berlin so they will have the same supply level as German units.

Having different supply sources for different countries will be a big change to code and it could introduce many unwanted bugs. Right now the supply determination system is very simple and the code is not so long. But with minor power capitals providing supply then we have a different way of calculating supply. It's possible to do it, but you can get many strange situations. One example is that the Russians manage to cut Bucharest off from some Romanian units. That means these Romanian units will get a lower supply level even though these units have a rail link to Berlin.

The main reason the units in Norway and Finland have a lower supply level is that supplies have to be sent from Berlin via ships to Oslo and Helsinki. Sea supply is only supply level 3 and not 5. If you capture Leningrad you open up a rail link to Finland and you get better supply there (level 4). That means you can move faster with your units. This is one good reason to try to capture Leningrad as the Axis.

The northern front wasn't very mobile and I feel the current situation is not that ahistorical. It's not like the units can't move. Corps units move 3 hexes instead of 4.

*nods* Can understand where you are coming from.....