Slitherine

The cavalry starts east of Dijon somewhere (I saw it moving past Dijon during the AI turn due to Deep Recon) and might be set to move north immediately as it had made similar progress in our games on certain turns.

You're going to love the USSR in terms of prestige gains. I've finally managed to encircle and capture every single unit that could be captured for over 7000(!) prestige gained (before repairs).

Still undecided about either going Armeegruppe Mitte (played it once before), or following in your footsteps. You are doing south IIRC.

AA Veteran is proving its value to you. Freeing up slots while reducing losses is a nice double boon, though you have to pay 2 points for the privilege. Bonus objectives somehow lose their lustre when you're playing like this unless there's some strategic value -- an extra 50 prestige isn't particularly impressive when you can capture a Somua for over 200.

Yes, but if possible I want those objectives as well


Decided to do Heeresgruppe Süd as well, the added challenge of new maps should be nice.

Barbarossa South

Upgraded: 2x SdKfz 222 to SdKfz 232 8-Rad, Panzer IB to Panzer IVF

Bought: StuG IIIB artillery, 2x Do 217 E strat bomber

Starting Prestige: 9.550 - 72/72 slots

Infantry:
1. Pioniere (truck)
2. Pioniere (truck)
3. Pioniere (truck)
4. Fallschirmjäger (reserve)
5. Gebirgsjäger (reserve)
6. Brückenpioniere (reserve)

Tanks:
1. Panzer IVD
2. Panzer IVD
3. Panzer IVF (UPGRADE)
4 .Panzer IB
5. Panzer IB
6. Panzer IB

Recon:
1. Sdkfz 232 (UPGRADE)
2. Sdkfz 232 (UPGRADE)

Artillery:
1. 15 cm sFH 18 (half-track)
2. 10,5 cm leFH 18 (half-track)
3. 15 cm sFH 18 (half-track)
4. StuG IIIB

5. 10,5 cm leFH 18 (half-track)
6. StuG IIIB (NEW)

Anti-Air:
1. 2cm Flakvierling (half-track)
2. 2cm Flakvierling (half-track) (reserve)
3. SdKfz 7/1
4. 2cm Flakvierling (half-track) (reserve)

Fighter:
1. Bf 109E
2. Bf 109E

Tactical Bomber:
1. Bf 110D
Fi 156 Storch

Strategic Bomber:
1. Ju 88A
2. Ju 88A
3. Do 17Z
4. Do 217E (NEW)
5. Do 217E (NEW)





Setup: All Terrain capability is just to good to refuse if there are enough slots left which should be the case here, so upgrading the old SdKfz 222 to 232 8-Rads. The Romanians will get 3 Panzer (2x IB, 1x IVD) and 1 Pioniere. Without any map knowledge there is not much more I can do at the moment. As always the goal is as many encirclements as possible without damaging the soon to be captured units if possible (one of the reasons for another StuG, while it cant cross rivers like the Panzers it is sturdy and unlikely to cause much damage, and is very helpful with its entrenchment removal as well – essentially the same reasons why I got 2 more strat bombers).



Turn 1 North: Recon cars take the airfields at Kovel and Przemysl, forcing the aircraft there to relocate to Lwow. Damaged enemy aircraft around Przemysl and Lwow, focussing on fighters.



Turn 1 South: Encircled infantry across the river from Iasi, preparing to encircle the infantry on the river to Cernauti.



Turn 2 North: Surrendered the infantry in and around Przemysl together with the newly arrived cavalry, keeping the airfield unoccupied on purpose since I want to rebase the remaining Soviet aircraft there and bring in my Flak units. Infantry between Kovel and Lwow surrendered. Shot down all the fighters at Lwow. Artillery at Lwow surrendered, airfield occupied, forcing the two remaining tac bombers back to Przemysl, where the FlaK is already waiting. Lwow and newly arrived recon car encircled and tanks on the eastern flank backed by 15cm artillery.



Turn 2 South: Surrendered the infantry at the bridge to Iasi, the infantry at the bridge SE of Iasi encircled. Infantry on the bridge to Cernauti encircled. 6.Panzer heading towards Tighina for a future encirclement.



Turn 3 North: Stopped tank attack on the eastern flank cold, 4 tanks encircled, all high enough on suppression already to be fully suppressed on the next turn without any further actions by me. Due to missing range of the second Bf 109E one Tupolev at Przemysl will get away with 1 HP, but the AI is spending lots of prestige to get them back up and my FlaK and fighters gain XP. Lwow and the recon surrendered. And saw too late that I forgot to occupy the airfield at Przemysl. Moving a recon back.



Turn 3 South: Suicidal attack by T-38 recon, it put itself into encirclement just to get to the aux infantry on the river, surrendered. Troops getting ready to encircle Tighina, Do 217E rebased to guarantee being in range.
Infantry at Cernauti surrendered, newly joined infantry encircled.



Turn 4 North: AT gun and a T-26 attacked the pocket, they were encircled as well, units in the old pocket captured. Last Tupolev at Przemysl brought to 2 HP, airfield occupied, putting all AA units into AT mode. Infantry at Kovel captured, AT gun in Kovel encircled.



Turn 4 South: BT-7 and cavalry attacked at the small pocket NE of Cernauti, both are encircled and bombed, infantry in old pocket surrendered. Tighina pocket formed, Balta encircled, airfield occupied.



Turn 5: More Soviet armor attacking, at Tarnopal Romanian tank destroyed. Kovel occupied, old pocket at Lwow cleared. New pocket created, T34-40 approaching. Last Tupolev shot down. Took Tarnopol airfield.



Turn 6: And the tanks keep coming... Encircled the T34/40 and the next wave in front of Tarnopol.



South


Turn 7: Cleaning up in the north. Tighina and surrounding units captured and city occupied.



Turn 8: Balta surrendered, lacking movement to occupy.



Turn 9: Pz IVF reinforced (5 elite for 232 prestige) since I doubt anything else can really hurt the T-34/40 with its. Fostov occupied and the airfield to the south of it.



Turn 10: Encircled and shelled Vinnitsa. Sheeling of Zhitomir began as well. Rivne fort destroyed, town occupied, T-34/40 finally captured.



Turn 11: Second T34-34/40 arrived at Vinnitsa, encircled. Vinnitsa surrendered and occupied. Zhitomir and the remaining units encircled. Lots of turns left this time. Trying to merge the units to be able to take a meaningful endgame screen.



Turn 12: Captured another 9 T-34/40s. All enemies eliminated, Zhitomir occupied.






End Prestige: 17.022 (+7.704), after repairs: 16.071 (+6.521)


Nice map, and it looks like comradep’s AI is afraid of him, I got pretty much relentless waves of tanks coming in. In the end those waves lead to higher losses, but a quicker finish I think. It seems like crossing certain lines/hexes in combination with being seen triggers the attacks, not just taking cities/towns. And with 17 T-34/40s captured I am tempted to use one, but those 4 slots bother me.


Another thing that starts to bother me is the relative ease of gaining prestige with this tactic. 1.440 prestige for repairs if a lot, but more than offset by the gains from captures.

If the AI can see and reach you, it will normally attack. That was the case when I played the scenario as well. I just made sure the AI could only reach me with a handful of tanks each turn.

Soviet tanks aside from the T26 are pretty fast, moving 5-6 hexes.

There's only one truly mobile group as far as I can tell, that starts east of Zhitomir and then moves west.

I just knew you'd gain more prestige The 500 prestige or so difference is probably from how strong enemy units were when they were captured/when they surrendered.

My replacement costs were 700 prestige.

Kiev South might be tricky for you with Trench Slog, depending on how you play.

Clear has a maximum entrenchment level of 5. That, strangely, means that removing a fully entrenched unit from a Clear hex or a Fortified hex both require the removal of 5 entrenchment levels.

You'll be glad you brought all those strategic bombers.

The StuG IIIB is great too, because in my case it means any defender can be removed after it is targeted by a Stug IIIB, and air unit and the actual ground attack. In your case that would still be true if the air unit is a strategic bomber.

Ah, thx for the explanation, already was afraid that there are some other triggers I was unaware of.

Yes, but I lost more than those 500 in extra repairs

With just 4 extra slots for Kiew it is not easy to decide what to buy. An additional SdKfz 232 would be great, as would another StuG. Maybe I will reserve the one of the larger strat bombers and get another small Do 17Z instead, thus freeing up 5 slots.

Kiew

Upgraded: 1x Panzer IB to Panzer IIIH, 2x Pz IVD to Pz IVF

Bought: 1x SdKfz 232, 1x StuG IIIB

Starting Prestige: 15.131 - 76/76 slots

Infantry:
1. Pioniere (half-track 8MP)
2. Pioniere (half-track 8MP)
3. Pioniere (half-track 8MP) (reserve)
4. Fallschirmjäger (reserve)
5. Gebirgsjäger (reserve)
6. Brückenpioniere (reserve)

Tanks:
1. Panzer IVF (UPGRADE)
2. Panzer IVF (UPGRADE)
3. Panzer IVF
4 .Panzer IIIH (UPGRADE)
5. Panzer IB
6. Panzer IB

Recon:
1. Sdkfz 232
2. Sdkfz 232
3. SdKfz 232 (NEW)

Artillery:
1. 15 cm sFH 18 (half-track)
2. 10,5 cm leFH 18 (half-track)
3. 15 cm sFH 18 (half-track)
4. StuG IIIB
5. 10,5 cm leFH 18 (half-track)
6. StuG IIIB
7. StuG IIIB (NEW)

Anti-Air:
1. 2cm Flakvierling (half-track)
2. 2cm Flakvierling (half-track) (reserve)
3. SdKfz 7/1
4. 2cm Flakvierling (half-track) (reserve)

Fighter:
1. Bf 109E
2. Bf 109E

Tactical Bomber:
1. Bf 110D
Fi 156 Storch

Strategic Bomber:
1. Ju 88A
2. Ju 88A
3. Do 17Z
4. Do 217E
5. Do 217E



North


South

Setup: When tinkering with the start I tried to break-through at Mirgorod at first, but got bogged down since there is no way for a good encirclement without killing lots of units and constant counterattacks, not worth the pain. For the northern I force - due to Trench Slog - I will have to bomb the easily entrenched positions by strat bomber due to the lack of artillery. The key is taking out/isolation the supply hexes, then the rest is just mop up.


Turn 1 North: Mini Flak trap SE of Gomel mainly with units needed to block supply in the area later on. Main force heading east. Hmm, forgot to take a screen.



Turn 1 South: All units heading towards Poltava, only remembered later that I want to keep a split StuG close to Kremenchug to support the attack there later on.



Turn 2 North: Infantry around Gomel getting into blocking positions. Attack by a single tank in the east stopped, tank surrendered, infantry encircled. Attacking bomber brought down to 1 HP by Bf 109E.



Turn 2 South: First units arriving at Poltava, intelligence gathering and staying out of sight is key.



Turn 3 North: Infantry surrendered, defensive positions established, attacking fighter shot down.



Turn 3: Revealing units heavily backed by artillery, still units crossing the Dnieper.


Turn 4 North: Improving position, hoping to lure cavalry, not working.



Turn 4 South: Attack by bombers, one already down to 2 HP, shot down. 2 cavalry and 1 tank attacked as well, cavalry heavily suppressed. Poltava and airfield encircled and occupied, Ju 88A, Do 217E and Bf 110D transferred.



Turn 5 North: Aux tank crossing river for encirclement, units on the northern edge preparing to slip by the AT gun and completed the encirclement.



Turn 5 South: Force split up, northern part heading towards Sumy (supply point) while southern force will assault Kremenchug.



Turn 6 North: Encirclement of Trubchevsk area completed.



Turn 6 South: On the way to Sumy a KV-1/40 attacked and caused some damage before being captured. Sumy reached and softened up. Same with Kremenchuk further south. Key for reaching it with infantry from the north was a string of SdKfz 232 allowing the infantry to pass through.



Turn 7: Kremenchug and Sumy occupied, troops heading west, getting ready for forming the cauldron.



Turn 8 North: Cauldron formed, in the north isolating Novgorod Seversky (supply source) by sneaking units into the south of it was key. Gadyach occupied.



Turn 8 South: Konotop reached. In the south the SdKfz 232 in the SW is key for the cauldron, blocking the supply from the map edge over the bridge. Further to the west the 2 split Italian units block the map edge supply to Kiew (out of sight of the Soviet units). Starting to take out the remains of the Red Airforce.



Turn 9: Trubchevsk surrendered, cautious compression of the cauldron starting from the east. When possible units causing the least damage are chosen for the surrenders.



Turn 10: Mirgorod surrendered, compression of pocket continues. Next turn all units except infantry will be fully suppressed. The main point will be digging them out out their entrenchments, but I field sufficient strat bombers, artillery and especially StuGs.



Turn 11



Turn 12



Turn 13



Turn 14: Kiew reached.



Turn 15: StuG traffic jam in front of Kiew, and a strat bomber traffic jam above Kiew.



Turn 16

Turn 17: The end...


Ending Prestige: 28.644 (+13.513) , after repairs: 27.796 (+12.665)


The interesting part is coming up with a plan for the encirclement and trying to prevent unwanted AI actions. But the AI was largely more passive then I would have imagined/preferred, but then this is supposed to be about a cauldron, so this way fine I guess. With some more work/better coordinated movement the scenario could be completed even faster I think, but IMO not worth the time needed to do it

Impressive as always.

The difference in prestige for the captured units between your Kiev run and mine is higher than I would've expected, nearly 2000.

I've been thinking about why there's a difference in situations where we capture the same units, with the highest value units captured at roughly the same strength.

It might be due to Trench Slog, as I get the feeling I cause more losses to the frail units. I also didn't have any units, even split ones, that would cause less than 2 or 3 damage to infantry. That adds up over time as well.

There are 81 units that can be captured, and about 1300 points of objectives. You gained about 150 prestige per Soviet unit, I gained about 127 prestige. Considering that it's likely we both captured suppressed Soviet armour at 9 strength, that leaves a big difference for the soft units.

Thx

Yes, I pretty much went out of my way to cause low damage, often using weakened units for the "killing blow". I think a 2-3 HP Pz IB was my main finisher for soft units.

I have not seen any real influence from Trench Slog. On the one hand I suppose that I cause less damage while suppressing units due to the higher entrenchment, but on the other hand I have to do it more often and sometimes I do cause damage while suppressing. Overall I think those two should nearly equal out over time.

This scenario really is the Holy Grail of capturing. I've only played this scenario from the north, but from what I remember the Soviet forces were largely passive until engaged, so it's unlikely this scenario would ever prove challenging unless you push for an early confrontation with the Soviet armour and forego encircling entirely.

Like charonjr I find that detached damaged Panzers or recons do minimal damage even to vulnerable targets.

BTW, I just looked up the "3 extra" campaign start I did, finished Poland North with 1.242 prestige after repairs. Actually higher than without the +5 strength due to extra capture value.

I'd expect that to be the case, as whatever extra losses you suffer are unlikely to cost you more prestige than you'll be gaining from the extra strength. The question is whether those extra strength units would cause problems further down the line. Then again, I think it Rudankort said they're considering changing how the whole mechanic works, at least for higher difficulty settings. Could be as simple as tying it to the same % as the passive prestige, so 20% on Generalissimus (so you'd only get 40 prestige from a 200 prestige tank).

Yes, I expect that a 15 strength KV or 20 for those special units can pretty much oneshot most units later on.

This is what largely bothers me with the +5 strength. This can be largely circumvented by knowing the map, but having to rely on map knowledge feels bad as well.

As has been mentioned in another thread on the main forum, the devs have to be careful not to destroy the game for a large part of the audience by catering to a few grogs.

I think I will continue this AAR for now and see if I run into problems in the later phases of the campaign.

Indeed, 20 strength units might not necessarily make the game more difficult, as you'll earn plenty of additional prestige. The AI would also still be largely passive.

I'm worried that it might take too long to chew through those units in some maps unless you know the map and when the AI suddenly becomes aggressive, those overstrength units can throw a few painful punches. The AI will also attack units supported by artillery that it wouldn't attack with 15 strength units, because the slightly suppressed infantry units would attack like a normal ~15 strength unit.

After some consideration, I've restarted and am doing a no positive trait run.

Yes, we came across a no trait run in SineMora's thread I think. Or did you stick with your "negative trait" theme?

No traits seems a little lacklustre but it is the way you play the stand-alone scenarios, so perhaps it wouldn't be so bad. For a challenge it's probably a good alternative. Are you still picking negative traits, e.g., Poor Logistics? Either way I expect your core will be a little more orthodox this time around.

Rostov

Upgraded:1x 10,5cm leFH 18 to 15cm sFH 18, 1x Bf109E to Bf 109F, Do 17Z to Do 217E

Bought: 1x StuG IIIB

Starting Prestige: 27.796 - 80/80 slots

Infantry:
1. Pioniere (half-track 8MP)
2. Pioniere (half-track 8MP)
3. Pioniere (half-track 8MP) (reserve)
4. Fallschirmjäger (reserve)
5. Gebirgsjäger (reserve)
6. Brückenpioniere (reserve)

Tanks:
1. Panzer IVF
2. Panzer IVF
3. Panzer IVF
4 .Panzer IIIH
5. Panzer IB
6. Panzer IB

Recon:
1. Sdkfz 232
2. Sdkfz 232
3. SdKfz 232

Artillery:
1. 15 cm sFH 18 (half-track)
2. 15 cm sFH 18 (half-track) (UPGRADE)
3. 15 cm sFH 18 (half-track)
4. StuG IIIB
5. 10,5 cm leFH 18 (half-track)
6. StuG IIIB
7. StuG IIIB
8. StuG IIIB (NEW)

Anti-Air:
1. 2cm Flakvierling (half-track)
2. 2cm Flakvierling (half-track) (reserve)
3. SdKfz 7/1
4. 2cm Flakvierling (half-track) (reserve)

Fighter:
1. Bf 109F (UPGRADE)
2. Bf 109E

Tactical Bomber:
1. Bf 110D
Fi 156 Storch

Strategic Bomber:
1. Ju 88A
2. Ju 88A
3. Do 217E (UPGRADE)
4. Do 217E
5. Do 217E


Setup: Focus on the north, the aux forces are left to fend for themselfes. Planing a encirclement of the forces opposing them fairly quickly.



Turn 1: Immediate encirclement of the 4 tanks in front of Kharkov, all but one tank will be fully suppressed next turn and the remaining one will have 1 unsuppressed point left. Sumy encircled as well.



Turn 2: Tanks captured, Kharkov occupied. First units crossing the Donets, sturdy StuG in the lead. Aux units getting into positions to cut off supply from the map edges.



Turn 3: T-34/41 running into StuG (ambush) but luckily just lightly damaged, encircled. Belgorod surrendered, preparing encirclement of Mariupol and Stalino by sneaking troops to the east.



Turn 4: T-34/41 captured, preparations of encirclements to the east of Kharkov and the Mariupol/Stalino area completed.



Turn 5: Pockets formed, preparing for Soviet counterattacks.



Turn 6: Heavy counterattacks from inside and outside reopen the pocket shortly, but units are already weakened. Pocket re-established, most units will be fully suppressed by the next turn.



Turn 7: Stalino occupied, northern pocket eliminated.



Turn 8: Mariupol occupied, first units reach Kharkov.



Turn 9: Nasty 85mm AA and first 122mm artillery captured.



Turn 10: Just Rostov, a T-60 tank and a fort left.



Turn 11: And now just the fort.


Turn 12: The end...


Ending prestige: 34.285 (+6.489), after repairs: 33.185 (+5.389)


The pattern keeps repeating itself. Encircling fairly passive Soviet units which are too weak to really do anything about being slowly ground down.

Finally got around to checking this to avoid further spoilers. I see we had roughly the same idea, although you pushed south sooner and avoided having the Rostov defenders sally forth (probably because you stuck closer to Stalino). You made better time than me, and I couldn't finish the strongpoint off in the end due to a lack of penetrating weapons; the core of my core is beginning to feel a little dated. I'll see you in Moscow.

Yeah, just starting with Moscow here, will not be easy