UNDO command and other FoG2 features in P&S

[SnuggleBunnies]

Why can crossbow shoot overhead but not arquebus?

A good question. Because there is no arquebus in FoG2 :)
I can disable crossbow overhead shooting.

Should there be overhead shooting at all other than arty?

[Cronos09]

But you play with bow overhead shooting in SJ. I think it can be used in P&S, especially since there are very few bows here.

[SnuggleBunnies]

But you play with bow overhead shooting in SJ. I think it can be used in P&S, especially since there are very few bows here.

Frankly I don't think it should be in SJ either, my understanding is that it was added as a bit of 'flavor.' Richard had this to say in a similar thread in FoG -

"Because historically only very small bodies of archers shot overhead, and then only to dampen a charge somewhat rather than to cause long distance casualties. It is in fact very difficult to hit anything when shooting over other troops.

This issue has been discussed at great length by the Society of Ancients (a group dedicated to studying Ancient Warfare for wargaming purposes) over many decades, and the firm conclusion was that significant overhead shooting was not widely used. The reason for this presumably being that it would be rather ineffective.

It is true that the Romans sometimes put a rank or two of archers behind their legions against charging lancer armies (e.g. Arrian's Order of Battle vs the Alans), and Late Roman units probably had integral archers, but the effect of these was really part of the Impact combat rather than effective long-distance shooting."


That said, with overhead shooting from higher ground (regardless of the sparse evidence of men shooting over entire friendly units in front of them, as opposed to integrated archers) I think an all or nothing approach is best. In FoG, crossbows and slings can overhead shoot too. Handguns can't, but early handguns were short ranged and inaccurate even compared to arquebuses; plus, shooting at two tiles with them is generally a waste. The other good gameplay justification for allowing it for all as opposed to just bows, is that when in doubt Pike and Shot's design philosophy is to favor the more modern weapon systems that superseded traditional weaponry. That's why HW simply cancels armor advantage, and why Musket and Arquebus cancel armor advantage in melee, and why Steady Mixed Foot cancel out melee POAs of swordsmen, pistols, HW, why guns simply ignore armor POA when shooting (except the minor edge case of musket at long range vs armored foot). So giving bows an advantage that arquebus, carbine, musket don't have would be inappropriate to Pike and Shot's general design philosophy.

So overhead shooting from higher ground for none or all IMO is the way to go.

Edit: relevant post RE Sengoku overhead shooting. Keep in mind SJ allows overhead shooting even from flat ground.
https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewto ... er#p662195

[Cronos09]

Ok, Jack, you convinced me. Out of respect for "Pike and Shot's general design philosophy", I will remove the overhead shooting from the mod and update the links tomorrow.

[SnuggleBunnies]

Ok, Jack, you convinced me. Out of respect for "Pike and Shot's general design philosophy", I will remove the overhead shooting from the mod and update the links tomorrow.

Sounds great! Thanks for this, excited to test it out. I will wait to host matches until I DL tomorrow's version.

[Cronos09]

Full description for the mod of 18.04.2022:
1) 'Push back', 'Fight Melee', 'Immediate Score' and 'Undo' options (remember, if you used the 'Undo' command, that unit is removed from 'Next Unmoved' option. So it will be better to move the unit again at once);
2) the mod includes fixes for the flaws of the original P&S based on FoG2 scripts:
a) charging enemy units that are beyond 45 degrees of straight ahead at the start of the move after a turn,
b) blocking of 2 units with ZoCs of each other when they are separated by two other units in close combat,
c) cavalry doesn't get +100 PoA vs the Mobs in open;
3) 'Remove evader casualties' option;
4) FoG2 'Turn and Shoot' option. I have improved it: when hovering over an enemy unit, the options are now called "Shoot" and "Turn and Shoot" as they are in real;
5) FoG2 pursuit scripts: infantry who are neither Warriors nor Raw will not pursue. Keil never pursuits;
6) FoG2 option which does not take base AP for Fragmented unit below 6 AP unless base AP is less than 6.
The mod https://disk.yandex.by/d/ACaEpImLs2swow. Installation here https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewto ... 99#p869697 (two posts from 31.07 and 02.08)

[Athos1660]

Nice to see modding activities on this great game !

[Cronos09]

An example of 'overmodding'.
When adding FoG2 Turn and Shoot option to P&S I also filled FUNCTION REACT_UNIT_TurnAndShoot(me, unit) using FUNCTION REACT_Unit_Shoot(me, unit) from Shooting.BSF (original FUNCTION REACT_UNIT_TurnAndShoot(me, unit) looks like this

Code: Select all

FUNCTION REACT_UNIT_TurnAndShoot(me, unit)
{
	return -1; // No reaction shooting.
}

and got the result - AI started to use the T&S option too when it was the reactive volley:

I think that it is excessive. So I returned the function to the original form. The mod links were updated yesterday.

[Cronos09]

During the testing of the mod, two issues were discovered:
1) infantry still pursues after charging routed or fragmented (when the unit will rout as a result of the charge) units. I will fix it in the next version;
2) after using the 'Undo' command the unit is removed from 'Next Unmoved' option. I think it is critical thing in some way. I cannot fix this due to the absence of the ResetHasBeenOrdered(me) command in the P&S engine.
I suggest deleting the 'Undo' option in the next versions. Since P&S players are used to play without it.

[SnuggleBunnies]

During the testing of the mod, two issues were discovered:
1) infantry still pursues after charging routed or fragmented (when the unit will rout as a result of the charge) units. I will fix it in the next version;
2) after using the 'Undo' command the unit is removed from 'Next Unmoved' option. I think it is critical thing in some way. I cannot fix this due to the absence of the ResetHasBeenOrdered(me) command in the P&S engine.
I suggest deleting the 'Undo' option in the next versions. Since P&S players are used to play without it.

I think undo should stay. It's useful, and players generally immediately move again with the same unit after an undo

[Athos1660]

See how you too became addicted to Undo in P&S...

[Cronos09]

During the testing of the mod, two issues were discovered:
1) infantry still pursues after charging routed or fragmented (when the unit will rout as a result of the charge) units. I will fix it in the next version;
2) after using the 'Undo' command the unit is removed from 'Next Unmoved' option. I think it is critical thing in some way. I cannot fix this due to the absence of the ResetHasBeenOrdered(me) command in the P&S engine.
I suggest deleting the 'Undo' option in the next versions. Since P&S players are used to play without it.

I think undo should stay. It's useful, and players generally immediately move again with the same unit after an undo

Ok, Jack, I appreciate your opinion. I will ask Tomasz about the necessity of the 'Undo' option in P&S.
Of course, thanks to SnuggleBunnies and Gribol for their help with testing the mod.

[Cronos09]

By 2 votes vs 1 I leave the 'Undo' command in the mod. Remember, if you used it, that unit is removed from 'Next Unmoved' option. So it will be better to move the unit again at once.
The latest version https://disk.yandex.by/d/ACaEpImLs2swow (the same link in my post of 18.04.2022).
Delete the previous ver. and reinstall the mod.

[JohnWise]

By 2 votes vs 1 I leave the 'Undo' command in the mod. Remember, if you used it, that unit is removed from 'Next Unmoved' option. So it will be better to move the unit again at once.
The latest version https://disk.yandex.by/d/ACaEpImLs2swow (the same link in my post of 18.04.2022).
Delete the previous ver. and reinstall the mod.

All this looks great but when I try to use it on one of my ECW historical scenario's namely Cotes Bridge ( after downloading extracting & adding it to the Campaigns/cotes folder ) I get this error message when I start the scenario.

Naturally I tried undoing the changes and re-extracated the RAR file again, as well as manually changing the files
but no joy as I get exactly the same error message.

Script Error in C:/Users/johnw/Documents/My Games/PSCAMP/CAMPAIGNS/SCENARIOS/COTES.BSF:
Failed to find variable IsTileEdgeReallyDefendibleObstacle: Did you
forget to predefine it?
Context:

highestObstacleType =
etc.
highestObstacleType =
etc.
highestObstacleType =
etc.

[Cronos09]

By 2 votes vs 1 I leave the 'Undo' command in the mod. Remember, if you used it, that unit is removed from 'Next Unmoved' option. So it will be better to move the unit again at once.
The latest version https://disk.yandex.by/d/ACaEpImLs2swow (the same link in my post of 18.04.2022).
Delete the previous ver. and reinstall the mod.

All this looks great but when I try to use it on one of my ECW historical scenario's namely Cotes Bridge ( after downloading extracting & adding it to the Campaigns/cotes folder ) I get this error message when I start the scenario.

Naturally I tried undoing the changes and re-extracated the RAR file again, as well as manually changing the files
but no joy as I get exactly the same error message.

Script Error in C:/Users/johnw/Documents/My Games/PSCAMP/CAMPAIGNS/SCENARIOS/COTES.BSF:
Failed to find variable IsTileEdgeReallyDefendibleObstacle: Did you
forget to predefine it?
Context:

highestObstacleType =
etc.
highestObstacleType =
etc.
highestObstacleType =
etc.

I have no problem with adding the mod to Cotes Bridge scenario.
I can suggest:
1) delete the current Cotes Bridge scenario and download it again from the game;
2) unzip the mod somewhere to your HD;
3) open the folder ...\Score_Undo_Melee_PushB_T&S_plus_option\, copy DATA, Core.BSF and Text22.txt from there and paste them to ...\Documents\My Games\PSCAMP\CAMPAIGNS\COTES\.
It should work fine.

[JohnWise]

By 2 votes vs 1 I leave the 'Undo' command in the mod. Remember, if you used it, that unit is removed from 'Next Unmoved' option. So it will be better to move the unit again at once.
The latest version https://disk.yandex.by/d/ACaEpImLs2swow (the same link in my post of 18.04.2022).
Delete the previous ver. and reinstall the mod.

All this looks great but when I try to use it on one of my ECW historical scenario's namely Cotes Bridge ( after downloading extracting & adding it to the Campaigns/cotes folder ) I get this error message when I start the scenario.

Naturally I tried undoing the changes and re-extracated the RAR file again, as well as manually changing the files
but no joy as I get exactly the same error message.

Script Error in C:/Users/johnw/Documents/My Games/PSCAMP/CAMPAIGNS/SCENARIOS/COTES.BSF:
Failed to find variable IsTileEdgeReallyDefendibleObstacle: Did you
forget to predefine it?
Context:

highestObstacleType =
etc.
highestObstacleType =
etc.
highestObstacleType =
etc.

I have no problem with adding the mod to Cotes Bridge scenario.
I can suggest:
1) delete the current Cotes Bridge scenario and download it again from the game;
2) unzip the mod somewhere to your HD;
3) open the folder ...\Score_Undo_Melee_PushB_T&S_plus_option\, copy DATA, Core.BSF and Text22.txt from there and paste them to ...\Documents\My Games\PSCAMP\CAMPAIGNS\COTES\.
It should work fine.

Still no joy, still get the same error message as above even after deleting the Cotes Bridge scenario and downloading
it again before unzipping the mod . Looks like I'll have to completely uninstall Pike&Shot Campaigns, then re-install it
again.
The only other thing I can think of is that maybe there's been a recent update to Pike&Shot Campaigns and I
haven't installed the latest update.

Tell me is the latest update v140 ? or has there been a more recent update since that version ?

[Cronos09]

Still no joy, still get the same error message as above even after deleting the Cotes Bridge scenario and downloading
it again before unzipping the mod . Looks like I'll have to completely uninstall Pike&Shot Campaigns, then re-install it
again.
The only other thing I can think of is that maybe there's been a recent update to Pike&Shot Campaigns and I
haven't installed the latest update.

Tell me is the latest update v140 ? or has there been a more recent update since that version ?

Patch 1.40 is the latest update. Did you install other P&S mods, maybe, using JSGME? They should be inactivated.
Here is Cotes Bridge scenario with my mod https://disk.yandex.ru/d/PCBKHWq-j3hL5A. It only needs be unzipped at ...\Documents\My Games\PSCAMP\CAMPAIGNS\. It works fine for me.

[JohnWise]

Still no joy, still get the same error message as above even after deleting the Cotes Bridge scenario and downloading
it again before unzipping the mod . Looks like I'll have to completely uninstall Pike&Shot Campaigns, then re-install it
again.
The only other thing I can think of is that maybe there's been a recent update to Pike&Shot Campaigns and I
haven't installed the latest update.

Tell me is the latest update v140 ? or has there been a more recent update since that version ?

Patch 1.40 is the latest update. Did you install other P&S mods, maybe, using JSGME? They should be inactivated.
Here is Cotes Bridge scenario with my mod https://disk.yandex.ru/d/PCBKHWq-j3hL5A. It only needs be unzipped at ...\Documents\My Games\PSCAMP\CAMPAIGNS\. It works fine for me.

Ok thanks for the link to the Cotes Bridge scenario with your mod - I did do a reinstall of Pike&Shot Campaigns and
your Cotes Bridge scenario mod works fine now. I can only assume that when I bought my new Win 10 Laptop ( a couple
of years ago ) and installed my favourite games on it; I neglected to install the latest v140 update, as looking back
to the install folder I used for installing Pike&Shot Campaigns, I only had v110 & v112 on the list of files to
update Pike&Shot after installing Pike&Shot Campaigns.

[w_michael]

I recently downloaded this excellent MOD, and I am playing it in a MP game with a friend. I noticed something unexpected with the Push Back feature. My Arkebusier unit was in close combat. During my turn I executed the close combat and the Arkebusiers were pushed back out of close combat. I was then able to shoot at the enemy unit that I was previously in close combat with. My Arkebusiers were able to have both a close combat action and a shooting action in the same turn. Is this intended?

[SnuggleBunnies]

I recently downloaded this excellent MOD, and I am playing it in a MP game with a friend. I noticed something unexpected with the Push Back feature. My Arkebusier unit was in close combat. During my turn I executed the close combat and the Arkebusiers were pushed back out of close combat. I was then able to shoot at the enemy unit that I was previously in close combat with. My Arkebusiers were able to have both a close combat action and a shooting action in the same turn. Is this intended?

Hasn't this always been the case in Pike and Shot? Units that just fought a melee and are able to turn but not move can fire in the vanilla game