UNDO command and other FoG2 features in P&S

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Athos1660
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Re: UNDO command in P&S

Post by Athos1660 »

@Cronos : maybe it might be useful to remind MP players that both opponents have to install the same version of mod (ie. U, US or USF) on their computer to be able to play it (if I am not mistaken) :-)
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Re: UNDO command in P&S

Post by Cronos09 »

Athos1660 wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:20 am @Cronos : maybe it might be useful to remind MP players that both opponents have to install the same version of mod (ie. U, US or USF) on their computer to be able to play it (if I am not mistaken) :-)
OK, thanks. Done.
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Re: UNDO command in P&S

Post by Athos1660 »

What to do with the two files 'Campaign.bsf' and 'Campaign.txt' inside our SP/MP mods, Le Roi Soleil Undo or MPEnglishCivilWar_USF in our examples above ?

If one keeps them, one can't create, save and play new Scenarios (especially in 'Historical').

So I am used to either deleting them or replacing them with one single Campaign.txt with one line : 'TYPE 0'.
Is it the way to do it ?

What does "TYPE 0", "TYPE 2"... mean ?
Last edited by Athos1660 on Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cronos09
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Re: UNDO command in P&S

Post by Cronos09 »

Nothing should be done with these files. If you wish to add a new scenario in your module, open Campaign.txt, type the name of your new scenario (eg. [Test]) and save. Open your module in the editor, create a new scenario and save it with your name - Test. It should be saved.

TYPE 0 - available in HISTORICAL section
TYPE 1 - available in CAMPAIGNS section
TYPE 2 - available in SKIRMISH section
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Re: UNDO command in P&S

Post by Athos1660 »

Cronos09 wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:32 am Nothing should be done with these files. If you wish to add a new scenario in your module, open Campaign.txt, type the name of your new scenario (eg. [Test]) and save. Open your module in the editor, create a new scenario and save it with your name - Test. It should be saved.
Thx for this useful info !
This is a method that indeed works for Campaigns/Modules including Vanilla Scenarios.

But the Age of Machiavelli and LeRoiSoleil are modules without Vanilla Scenarios. There is a 'TYPE 2' (Skirmish only) in their Campaign.txt. So you have to create a "Scenarios" folder and delete TYPE 2 in their Campaign.txt. And you don't have to write the name of your new scenarios in Campaign.txt, as there are none already. Right ?
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Re: UNDO command in P&S

Post by Cronos09 »

Yes. But you have to write the names of your new scenarios in Campaign.txt in any case so that they appear in HISTORICAL section. Otherwise they will not be available except in the editor.
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Re: UNDO command in P&S

Post by Athos1660 »

Cronos09 wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:08 pm But you have to write the names of your new scenarios in Campaign.txt in any case so that they appear in HISTORICAL section. Otherwise they will not be available except in the editor.
I disagree with this :-)

You only have to write the names of your new scenarios in Campaign.txt if there are already scenarios written in this file. So if you don't use the Vanilla scenarios in your modded modules, you can even delete them in Campaign.txt (and in your Scenarios folder) and you won't have to write anything anymore when creating new scenarios.

If you create a new scenario in the Editor while there are already Scenarios written in the Campaign.txt, it won't appear in the Historical section. But if there is none, it will.

Writing the name of the scenarios in Campaign.txt only limits the number of scenarios that can be played to those written in this file. If you write nothing, any scenario will be able to be played. At least this is how I understand it and as it works on my computer. But I may be wrong.
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Re: UNDO command in P&S

Post by Cronos09 »

OK. It works as you write. I always work with Campaign.txt, and I write the name of a new scenario in it.
In your case the scenarios are listed in the order of creation in your module in HISTORICAL section. And if you wish to change the order you will have to write their names in Campaign.txt.
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Re: UNDO command in P&S

Post by Athos1660 »

Interesting !
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Re: UNDO command in P&S

Post by GentlemanRanker »

Many thanks to you both; following the instruction given, I have installed and tested the ‘Undo / Immediate score update’ mod for single player and multiplayer – the mod worked as advertised in both modes.

I found a couple of slight departures during installation:
To update for SP, added the TEXTURES folder to DATA\UI so as not to overwrite the various SCENUI_ and _map.txt files present in the UI folder.

To update for MP, added the Scripts folder to DATA\Battle so as not to overwrite the UnitTextures folder found there.

Cronos09, do you think it would be a straightforward project to port these changes to Sengoku Jidai, or do the scripts work differently ‘beneath the hood’?
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Re: UNDO command in P&S

Post by Cronos09 »

GentlemanRanker wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:33 pm I found a couple of slight departures during installation:
To update for SP, added the TEXTURES folder to DATA\UI so as not to overwrite the various SCENUI_ and _map.txt files present in the UI folder.

To update for MP, added the Scripts folder to DATA\Battle so as not to overwrite the UnitTextures folder found there.
I do not quite understand what do you mean by that. There are neither SCENUI_.txt / _map.txt files nor UnitTexture folder in this mod.

About Sengoku Jidai - it needs to make changes as there is no information about generals in the mod files.
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Re: UNDO command in P&S

Post by Athos1660 »

GentlemanRanker wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:33 pm I found a couple of slight departures during installation:
To update for SP, added the TEXTURES folder to DATA\UI so as not to overwrite the various SCENUI_ and _map.txt files present in the UI folder.
Sorry for the vagueness. I wrote the instructions from memory and English is not my mother tongue. I've just edited my post, hoping it'll be clearer.
Cronos09 wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:10 pm I do not quite understand what do you mean by that. There are neither SCENUI_.txt / _map.txt files nor UnitTexture folder in this mod.
I think I warned us about the risk of overwriting files if e.g. one copy/pastes the DATA\UI of your mod over the already existing DATA\UI of a module and delete files. Our posts may have been not enough clear : one has to paste files respecting the folder structure of the DATA folder while keeping the original files of the module.
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Re: UNDO command in P&S

Post by Athos1660 »

Here is, as un example, the modded Le Roi Soleil Campaign with undo for SP.

Download and unzip in C:\Users\Users\Documents\My Games\PSCAMP\CAMPAIGNS\
Then run P&S, click on Skirmish and choose as Campaign ‘’Le Roi Soleil Undo''
https://www.mediafire.com/file/fakbj15aarjvlje/file

All your modded campaigns will have the same structure of folders and files.
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Re: UNDO command in P&S

Post by Cronos09 »

In the mod nothing conflicts with the copied original P&S modules. Do not bother about it.

Another interesting FoG2 feature which can be implemented in P&S - 'Push back':
"When on the offensive, troops with impact foot, pike or offensive spearmen capability will follow up pushed back enemy foot. They are on the offensive when they originally initiated the close combat. They will not follow up pushed back enemy when on the defensive - when the enemy originally initiated the close combat. Following up can lead to the unit exposing its flanks to attack. For this reason it is important for these unit-types only to charge when their flanks will be adequately supported by friends even after following up. Enemy cannot pass through the square in front of another friendly unit to hit a flank, so flanks can be protected even when the protecting unit is not quite level with the unit it is supporting."

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Athos1660
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Re: UNDO command in P&S

Post by Athos1660 »

Cronos09 wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:48 pm Another interesting FoG2 feature which can be implemented in P&S - 'Push back':
... and "follow-ups" :-) :
(section 14.4 : Push Backs and Follow Ups) If foot lose badly in close combat against foot Shock Troops who originally initiated the close combat, they will be pushed back and the enemy will follow up.
Interesting, indeed.

Here is an interesting design note about push-back, follow-up and pursuit from the FoG 2 manual (p. 145) comparing FoG2 and FoG1 :
Mounted troops pursue broken enemy as before. Infantry pursuits, however, which were rather over-represented in the tabletop game and FOG1...
...and thus in P&S ?
...have been toned down significantly. Only warbands and raw troops will pursue broken enemy foot. However, pikes, offensive spearmen and impact foot will push back and follow up enemy foot who lose against them significantly in a round of close combat. This is more predictable than pursuit, and will only occur if the victors were on the offensive (originally initiated the combat). It allows the game to represent historical occurrences such as Macedonian pikes following up into disordering terrain, or into positions where they could be flanked by the Roman second line.
Hence my questions :
- Wouldn't Push-back/follow-up add too much "pursuit" and risk of flanking in P&S ? Isn't it either the FoG2 system (toned down pursuit + follow-ups) or the FoG1 system (max pursuit + no follow-ups) ?
- Are follow-ups historical for our timeframe ?
- Are infantry pursuits really over-represented in P&S ? :-)
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Re: UNDO command in P&S

Post by Cronos09 »

FoG2 'Push back', 'Immediate Score' and 'Undo' options https://yadi.sk/d/l97d5lWz16dc4Q
CombatTools.BSF is changed here.

FoG2 'Push back', 'Fight Melee', 'Immediate Score' and 'Undo' options together https://yadi.sk/d/kGRCOIAHEd7LZA
CombatTools.BSF is changed here.

I replaced the above links to 'Fight Melee', 'Immediate Score' and 'Undo' module:
I removed the bayonets (as they are used not in all scenarios of the 18th and 19th centures), and I added an option of finding the units which are in close combat and have 'Fight Melee' possibility through "Next Unmoved Unit" button.
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Re: UNDO command in P&S

Post by Cronos09 »

I added 'Artillery capturing' option.

The rules for 'Capturing an enemy artillery':
1) only non-light infantry can capture artillery guns as a result of its direct charge. Morale state of the artillery is equal to the infantry unit;
2) cavalry and light infantry charges make gunners run away (guns remain on the battlefield). An enemy infantry unit arrives and captures the battery with a repeat charge;
3) Shooting from the distance makes gunners run away too. If a friendly unit is within 1 square of the battery, it regains control of the artillery guns next turn. Morale state of the artillery is equal to the unit;
4) If a friendly unit is in one of 5 tiles/squares in the front and on the sides of the artillery unit a direct charge of the artillery is impossible because of 'Side support'.

'Artillery capturing' and FoG2 'Immediate Score' and 'Undo' options https://yadi.sk/d/2lOPYaxuEhciTA
CombatTools.BSF is changed here.

'Artillery capturing' and FoG2 'Push back', 'Fight Melee', 'Immediate Score' and 'Undo' options together https://yadi.sk/d/78ja-LDG_p-7-w
CombatTools.BSF is changed here.
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Re: UNDO command in P&S

Post by Athos1660 »

I've just came across an argument by Richard against Undo in the current version of P&S (post 4). I guess it might interest those who didn't read it. Hoping quoting one of Richard's old posts won't bother him :
We have implemented an Undo feature for our next game (Field of Glory II), but in order to do so we had to make significant changes to game flow. In particular we had to remove reactive fire.

This is because reactive fire has a test to see whether the unit will fire or not. (Otherwise the unit would always fire as soon as the enemy is in range, rather than "waiting to see the whites of their eyes".) Higher quality units are less likely than Raw ones to fire prematurely at a worse target - at long range or out of full arc.

If there was an Undo button, not only would Undo have to be made impossible if reactive fire is actually received, but also if it might have been received. Otherwise you could "hokey-kokey" with a unit that is at long range and/or out of full arc, to draw the enemy fire. If they don't fire, Undo, repeat, until they do. Then you can, with perfect safety, move the unit directly in front of the enemy that would have otherwise received the full force of a close-range full-arc volley.

This is just one of the reasons why an effective implementation of an Undo feature would require the whole game system to be re-organised to suit it. That is why we are unlikely to add it to Sengoku Jidai or Pike and Shot, even though we have it in Field of Glory II, and plan to have it in all our future games.
About modding Undo in P&S 1 and "hokey-kokey" :
- I didn't know of this dance and am really happy to have discovered it :-)
- I guess I am too naive (or too immersed in the historical reenactment) to think of such an exploit
- I guess it is quite a matter of concern especially for MP.
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Re: UNDO command in P&S

Post by Cronos09 »

Athos1660 wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:30 am - I guess it is quite a matter of concern especially for MP.
Athos, this 'matter of concern' does not threaten you :)
Having played a dozen MP matches with UNDO command, I did not see a special problem like that. I think my opponents can say the same. Moreover, some of my opponents say that they miss the UNDO command in the latest versions of the General mod.
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Re: UNDO command in P&S

Post by Athos1660 »

Happy to know that, Cronos :-)
Cronos09 wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:10 pm I think my opponents can say the same. Moreover, some of my opponents say that they miss the UNDO command in the latest versions of the General mod.
As for the AI, it too never complained about my use of your Undo mod.
Well, to be honest, it is quite hard to guess what it really thinks about it ;-)

However, a (potential) exploit is an exploit... It is a pity when a nice feature is challenged.

Happy New Year's Eve to you, Cronos, and to all !
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