Opponent stops playing

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Vize
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Opponent stops playing

Post by Vize »

Well. After winning the first match after doing frequently every day a turn, my opponent now while it seems, that he will loose the reverse match, stops playing any further turns for quite some days now. That´s a behavior i have noticed quite sometimes in other tournaments too . The rules a generally speaking of some sort of punishment in points for that kind of player without going in details. Well as far this concerns me, i have never noticed such kind of punishments. Are they really existing?
rbodleyscott
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Re: Opponent stops playing

Post by rbodleyscott »

They do exist but did not often take effect in previous (Ancients) tournaments because they only kicked in if the player played less than 12 turns. The current Medieval tournament has that set to 24 turns.

What should happen, therefore, if your opponent has ceased to play, is that you will score 75 points (if that is more than your current score) and his existing score will be reduced by multiplying by the number of turns played / 24.
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Vize
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Re: Opponent stops playing

Post by Vize »

rbodleyscott wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:20 am They do exist but did not often take effect in previous (Ancients) tournaments because they only kicked in if the player played less than 12 turns. The current Medieval tournament has that set to 24 turns.

What should happen, therefore, if your opponent has ceased to play, is that you will score 75 points (if that is more than your current score) and his existing score will be reduced by multiplying by the number of turns played / 24.
It ist possible to get more than 100 points if you win....that´s now impossible for me, because he stopps when i have about 43 and he 31.......And he will not get any punishment fpor this behaviour...Are you seriously think this is fair???
rbodleyscott
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Re: Opponent stops playing

Post by rbodleyscott »

Vize wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:39 pm
rbodleyscott wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:20 am They do exist but did not often take effect in previous (Ancients) tournaments because they only kicked in if the player played less than 12 turns. The current Medieval tournament has that set to 24 turns.

What should happen, therefore, if your opponent has ceased to play, is that you will score 75 points (if that is more than your current score) and his existing score will be reduced by multiplying by the number of turns played / 24.
It ist possible to get more than 100 points if you win....that´s now impossible for me, because he stopps when i have about 43 and he 31.......And he will not get any punishment fpor this behaviour...Are you seriously think this is fair???
Against which one has to balance the situation where the game goes almost to the Turn limit, but isn't actually complete at the Time limit, and both sides have so far scored only 20% routed. The player that doesn't time out will get 75 points instead of 20. Is that fair to the other players in the tournament? Should he get even more?

43:31 isn't a guaranteed win. Should you get 100 points if your opponent stops playing? How would that be fair to the other players in the tournament. Even a win can score as low as 61 points, and 85 is common.

We have to compromise to minimise the unfairness in different circumstances. The computerised system cannot determine motivation, and nor can you. You seem to be very concerned that your opponent should be "punished". For all you know there may be a very good real world reason why he hasn't played for several days. Should he be punished because a family member died, for example? The computerised scoring system has no way of knowing why he has not played, and nor do you.

If you end up with only 75 points for the game, you will be no worse off than other players whose opponent didn't show at all, or who had byes.
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Vize
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Re: Opponent stops playing

Post by Vize »

rbodleyscott wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:31 pm
Vize wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:39 pm
rbodleyscott wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:20 am They do exist but did not often take effect in previous (Ancients) tournaments because they only kicked in if the player played less than 12 turns. The current Medieval tournament has that set to 24 turns.

What should happen, therefore, if your opponent has ceased to play, is that you will score 75 points (if that is more than your current score) and his existing score will be reduced by multiplying by the number of turns played / 24.
It ist possible to get more than 100 points if you win....that´s now impossible for me, because he stopps when i have about 43 and he 31.......And he will not get any punishment fpor this behaviour...Are you seriously think this is fair???
Against which one has to balance the situation where the game goes almost to the Turn limit, but isn't actually complete at the Time limit, and both sides have so far scored only 20% routed. The player that doesn't time out will get 75 points instead of 20. Is that fair to the other players in the tournament? Should he get even more?

43:31 isn't a guaranteed win. Should you get 100 points if your opponent stops playing? How would that be fair to the other players in the tournament. Even a win can score as low as 61 points, and 85 is common.

We have to compromise to minimise the unfairness in different circumstances. The computerised system cannot determine motivation, and nor can you. You seem to be very concerned that your opponent should be "punished". For all you know there may be a very good real world reason why he hasn't played for several days. Should he be punished because a family member died, for example? The computerised scoring system has no way of knowing why he has not played, and nor do you.

If you end up with only 75 points for the game, you will be no worse off than other players whose opponent didn't show at all, or who had byes.
Sorry this is really nonsens....He played absolutly frequently as long it concerns his 100:0 win.....the mirror game he is now going to loose....and he stopped...There is no dying family member.... What is not fair, that he will get his 31 points just for stopping the play.
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Re: Opponent stops playing

Post by rbodleyscott »

Vize wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:56 pm
rbodleyscott wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:31 pm
Vize wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:39 pm

It ist possible to get more than 100 points if you win....that´s now impossible for me, because he stopps when i have about 43 and he 31.......And he will not get any punishment fpor this behaviour...Are you seriously think this is fair???
Against which one has to balance the situation where the game goes almost to the Turn limit, but isn't actually complete at the Time limit, and both sides have so far scored only 20% routed. The player that doesn't time out will get 75 points instead of 20. Is that fair to the other players in the tournament? Should he get even more?

43:31 isn't a guaranteed win. Should you get 100 points if your opponent stops playing? How would that be fair to the other players in the tournament. Even a win can score as low as 61 points, and 85 is common.

We have to compromise to minimise the unfairness in different circumstances. The computerised system cannot determine motivation, and nor can you. You seem to be very concerned that your opponent should be "punished". For all you know there may be a very good real world reason why he hasn't played for several days. Should he be punished because a family member died, for example? The computerised scoring system has no way of knowing why he has not played, and nor do you.

If you end up with only 75 points for the game, you will be no worse off than other players whose opponent didn't show at all, or who had byes.
Sorry this is really nonsens....He played absolutly frequently as long it concerns his 100:0 win.....the mirror game he is now going to loose....and he stopped...There is no dying family member.... What is not fair, that he will get his 31 points just for stopping the play.
He won't get his 31 points. It will be reduced by the proportion of 24 turns he did not play. i.e. if he played 12 turns he will get 15 or 16 points. (I am not sure how the rounding works).
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JonJonJon
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Re: Opponent stops playing

Post by JonJonJon »

rbodleyscott wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:20 am They do exist but did not often take effect in previous (Ancients) tournaments because they only kicked in if the player played less than 12 turns. The current Medieval tournament has that set to 24 turns.

What should happen, therefore, if your opponent has ceased to play, is that you will score 75 points (if that is more than your current score) and his existing score will be reduced by multiplying by the number of turns played / 24.
Is there a bit of an exploit here with the 24 turns? For example, say one paired turn gets played per day. Quite common if the two players are in different time zones. Sometimes the odd day will be missed. Player one avoids engaging units with player two while camping an edge of the map. Player two spends time getting into an assault position. Player one further retreats to another section of the map while player two shifts into another assault position and continues his advance. After the two weeks, time runs out with 11 of 24 played - therefore less than the 24 individual turns, with maybe a few outlying units routed. Player one timing their turns so that player two has them in his inbox longer. Player one gets 150 points without ever trying to engage, while player two gets next to nothing despite attempting to push forward.
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Re: Opponent stops playing

Post by rbodleyscott »

JonJonJon wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:58 pm
rbodleyscott wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:20 am They do exist but did not often take effect in previous (Ancients) tournaments because they only kicked in if the player played less than 12 turns. The current Medieval tournament has that set to 24 turns.

What should happen, therefore, if your opponent has ceased to play, is that you will score 75 points (if that is more than your current score) and his existing score will be reduced by multiplying by the number of turns played / 24.
Is there a bit of an exploit here with the 24 turns? For example, say one paired turn gets played per day. Quite common if the two players are in different time zones. Sometimes the odd day will be missed. Player one avoids engaging units with player two while camping an edge of the map. Player two spends time getting into an assault position. Player one further retreats to another section of the map while player two shifts into another assault position and continues his advance. After the two weeks, time runs out with 11 of 24 played - therefore less than the 24 individual turns, with maybe a few outlying units routed. Player one timing their turns so that player two has them in his inbox longer. Player one gets 150 points without ever trying to engage, while player two gets next to nothing despite attempting to push forward.
Potentially, which is why it was previously set at 12 turns to prevent this sort of thing. Some people will always attempt to game any system.

But some people got so angry about players "deliberately stopping playing" that we are trying 24 turns for this tournament and see how it goes.

"Player one timing their turns so that player two has them in his inbox longer." might be hard to achieve, especially if the other player twigs what is going on. After all even if he sleeps for 8 hours, then plays a turn immediately on waking, there are 16 hours left in the day. So in order to not to be the one timed out, the nefarious player would have to play 2 turns per day, which would finish the battle anyway.

Anyway, we will see whether the new system leads to less screams of outraged protest than the old system, and if not, we will have to think of something else. Like, perhaps, pointing out that it is just a game!
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Joch1955
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Re: Opponent stops playing

Post by Joch1955 »

You will always have players who drop out or try to abuse the rules, not much you can do about that, that is the nature of MP play. On the whole the tournament seems to be going well with most games finished or far along. The way the points are awarded, it really rewards aggressive play since even a bloodbath where you lose will yield more points than a very passive strategy.

Unfortunate for the OP, but 75 points keeps you in the hunt and there are still 4 rounds to go, this thing is still wide open.
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Re: Opponent stops playing

Post by rbodleyscott »

Joch1955 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:52 pmUnfortunate for the OP, but 75 points keeps you in the hunt and there are still 4 rounds to go, this thing is still wide open.
And of course, because the draw is Swiss Chess, a lower score in the first round should get you an easier opponent in the 2nd round, and hence a chance to catch up.
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Vize
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Re: Opponent stops playing

Post by Vize »

Joch1955 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:52 pmUnfortunate for the OP, but 75 points keeps you in the hunt and there are still 4 rounds to go, this thing is still wide open.
Aha, 75 keeps you in the hunt...aha....

First place has now 229 points.....so more than 3 times more........After FIRST Round...... I would declare this as a fact of demotivation.

Why you do not see the first round of any tournament as kind of qualifying and not giving the same amount of points than in the later rounds?
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Re: Opponent stops playing

Post by Joch1955 »

well, my position is this:

1. rules of the tournament were clearly set out before the tournament began. Players were free to accept them or not. Once a tournament begins, you do not change the rules;

2. In addition, you certainly do not change the rules mid-tournament to advantage one player to the detriment of others; and

3. Personally, I think even 75 points for a bye is too generous. You have many players who won their matches who did not even score 75 points. However, everyone knew that rule going in so we just have to accept it.

You knew the rules going in, so you have to play by them. I am sure a lot of players feel the same way.
Vize
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Re: Opponent stops playing

Post by Vize »

Joch1955 wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:11 pm well, my position is this:

1. rules of the tournament were clearly set out before the tournament began. Players were free to accept them or not. Once a tournament begins, you do not change the rules;

2. In addition, you certainly do not change the rules mid-tournament to advantage one player to the detriment of others; and

3. Personally, I think even 75 points for a bye is too generous. You have many players who won their matches who did not even score 75 points. However, everyone knew that rule going in so we just have to accept it.

You knew the rules going in, so you have to play by them. I am sure a lot of players feel the same way.
So, now it is your turn and tell me, where exactly i want to change rules in mid-tournament???

All i did, was to tell, that in my opinion there is much room for optimization. You do not want to hear such things? o.k. then go to the next thread, but never ever assume things, which i never was speaking of! This would be also a fair rule for any discussion!
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Re: Opponent stops playing

Post by Pi2k »

So, I am having a similar issue... My opponent stopped playing when they had a slight advantage in points, however many melee battles don't look very good for them so eventually I'd gain points. Now they stopped playing and I feel there is nothing I could do but wait.

However I had a different question for the forum in mind: I am afraid that they might wait until the very last hour of the current round to play another turn so that I would get the penalty of not having finished the game... Technically speaking, is such a thing possible? Or will the system look at the time that players were active and prefer the one who made their turns more frequently? Any technical insights on that?

I'm gonna wait and see what they do, but since my opponent and I are in such different timezones I feel they might take advantage of that fact.. :-/
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Re: Opponent stops playing

Post by Atherys »

Pi2k wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:18 pm So, I am having a similar issue... My opponent stopped playing when they had a slight advantage in points, however many melee battles don't look very good for them so eventually I'd gain points. Now they stopped playing and I feel there is nothing I could do but wait.

However I had a different question for the forum in mind: I am afraid that they might wait until the very last hour of the current round to play another turn so that I would get the penalty of not having finished the game... Technically speaking, is such a thing possible? Or will the system look at the time that players were active and prefer the one who made their turns more frequently? Any technical insights on that?

I'm gonna wait and see what they do, but since my opponent and I are in such different timezones I feel they might take advantage of that fact.. :-/
Don't worry, according to Steam announcement, your enemy will be marked as timed-out because he plays slower. You can see the tourney's announcement again on Steam for details.

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app ... 7579422490
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Re: Opponent stops playing

Post by rbodleyscott »

Pi2k wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:18 pm However I had a different question for the forum in mind: I am afraid that they might wait until the very last hour of the current round to play another turn so that I would get the penalty of not having finished the game... Technically speaking, is such a thing possible?
No
Or will the system look at the time that players were active and prefer the one who made their turns more frequently?
Yes, it works on the total time the game spent in each player's in-tray during the round.
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grahamed
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Re: Opponent stops playing

Post by grahamed »

The OP clearly has a valid opinion, however It seems the “anti gaming” rules are reasonable and build in feedback from previous tournaments. I trust from Richards comments that any signs of “gaming” will be kept under review and any data & feedback (such as this thread) considered in future.

This is only my second tournament, whilst I wholeheartedly support steps to curb gaming, I urge caution in continually changing the rules, especially if it involves added complexity. In my experience of wargaming since the late 70’s a clever complex anti cheat fix usually leads to a slightly trickier more complex “cheat” A sort of degenerate arms race!

Finally great game, great tournament , really enjoying it, many thanks to the team, good luck to all the players!
JonJonJon
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Re: Opponent stops playing

Post by JonJonJon »

rbodleyscott wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:12 pm
JonJonJon wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:58 pm
rbodleyscott wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:20 am They do exist but did not often take effect in previous (Ancients) tournaments because they only kicked in if the player played less than 12 turns. The current Medieval tournament has that set to 24 turns.

What should happen, therefore, if your opponent has ceased to play, is that you will score 75 points (if that is more than your current score) and his existing score will be reduced by multiplying by the number of turns played / 24.
Is there a bit of an exploit here with the 24 turns? For example, say one paired turn gets played per day. Quite common if the two players are in different time zones. Sometimes the odd day will be missed. Player one avoids engaging units with player two while camping an edge of the map. Player two spends time getting into an assault position. Player one further retreats to another section of the map while player two shifts into another assault position and continues his advance. After the two weeks, time runs out with 11 of 24 played - therefore less than the 24 individual turns, with maybe a few outlying units routed. Player one timing their turns so that player two has them in his inbox longer. Player one gets 150 points without ever trying to engage, while player two gets next to nothing despite attempting to push forward.
Potentially, which is why it was previously set at 12 turns to prevent this sort of thing. Some people will always attempt to game any system.

But some people got so angry about players "deliberately stopping playing" that we are trying 24 turns for this tournament and see how it goes.

"Player one timing their turns so that player two has them in his inbox longer." might be hard to achieve, especially if the other player twigs what is going on. After all even if he sleeps for 8 hours, then plays a turn immediately on waking, there are 16 hours left in the day. So in order to not to be the one timed out, the nefarious player would have to play 2 turns per day, which would finish the battle anyway.

Anyway, we will see whether the new system leads to less screams of outraged protest than the old system, and if not, we will have to think of something else. Like, perhaps, pointing out that it is just a game!
My first round played out just as described - and the opposition who made no attempt to engage got 150, and I got five. 24 turns can be exploited like that as it's close to one a day. 18 would be better for the scenario I encountered - it'd be harder to exploit than 24 and more than the protested 12.

As for the OP, the only way I see for people disappearing before they lose would be to put more weight on inbox time for later/decisive turns - time spent in the inbox could be hit by a multiplier after say turn 12, or a certain % of troops routed.
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Re: Opponent stops playing

Post by rbodleyscott »

JonJonJon wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:05 pm
rbodleyscott wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:12 pm
JonJonJon wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:58 pm

Is there a bit of an exploit here with the 24 turns? For example, say one paired turn gets played per day. Quite common if the two players are in different time zones. Sometimes the odd day will be missed. Player one avoids engaging units with player two while camping an edge of the map. Player two spends time getting into an assault position. Player one further retreats to another section of the map while player two shifts into another assault position and continues his advance. After the two weeks, time runs out with 11 of 24 played - therefore less than the 24 individual turns, with maybe a few outlying units routed. Player one timing their turns so that player two has them in his inbox longer. Player one gets 150 points without ever trying to engage, while player two gets next to nothing despite attempting to push forward.
Potentially, which is why it was previously set at 12 turns to prevent this sort of thing. Some people will always attempt to game any system.

But some people got so angry about players "deliberately stopping playing" that we are trying 24 turns for this tournament and see how it goes.

"Player one timing their turns so that player two has them in his inbox longer." might be hard to achieve, especially if the other player twigs what is going on. After all even if he sleeps for 8 hours, then plays a turn immediately on waking, there are 16 hours left in the day. So in order to not to be the one timed out, the nefarious player would have to play 2 turns per day, which would finish the battle anyway.

Anyway, we will see whether the new system leads to less screams of outraged protest than the old system, and if not, we will have to think of something else. Like, perhaps, pointing out that it is just a game!
My first round played out just as described - and the opposition who made no attempt to engage got 150, and I got five.
Sorry to hear that.
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Re: Opponent stops playing

Post by Captainwaltersavage »

I have played quite a few tournaments and every opponent has engaged with the game and I have pretty much enjoyed the lot. Sadly on this recent round is my first encounter with an opponent who has not been playing their turns. I am annoyed, as I fancied my chances with this one and also I want to try out the different armies with a variety of opponents. However - I can set the same games up myself or give a shout out on the forums to set up a challenge. There are lots of people who will happily pick up extra games. Also - I do not know the personal circumstances of my opponent (they may be ill or bereaved or made homeless) and if they feel the need to game the system to end up slightly higher up a table then I think I can let them have that victory. The joy of playing opponents, without knowing how they will play, outweighs my disappointment if it does not go well.

The digital league is where you can find committed players with a great deal of skill and/or enthusiasm. There are lots of other leagues and competitions to try out as well. I just hope for better luck in the next round. I should be able to catch up the better players when they start having to play each other and hopefully their scores will get smaller, and if they don't then they probably deserve to win anyway.

Hope it goes better in the next round - for everyone who missed a match.
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