Questions on Game Mechanics from a Newb

Field of Glory: Empires is a grand strategy game in which you will have to move in an intricate and living tapestry of nations and tribes, each one with their distinctive culture.
Set in Europe and in the Mediterranean Area during the Classical Age, experience what truly means to manage an Empire.

Moderator: Pocus

Gray Fox
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Re: Questions on Game Mechanics from a Newb

Post by Gray Fox » Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:15 pm

2. The percentage bonus also adds to loyalty. So a healthy region is a happy region.

3. IIRC, Pocus posted that the one in the provincial Capital is the main contributor.

4. I have zero experience with something like that.

5. When a stack assaults a walled city or fights a battle, the stack is probably going to be exhausted or weakened. Planning to make a series of battles with the same force is not a good idea. So whether this might work as you want is secondary if the units just collapse.

6. The enemy gets to move, too. So if you move to a region deep in enemy territory and run in to a large enemy force unexpectedly, then your army could be mauled and have no friendly path of retreat.

7. IIRC a region stays pillaged for a while. If you defeat a force of pillagers, but they ravaged your regions, then you are worse off. That's why I try to encircle my empire with Client States. If enemies raid and pilllage my CS regions, then my empire can crush them for a final solution while remaining unscathed.

8. -Taking an objective gains you Legacy/turn and a progress token. Decisions and moving up the Tier scale of your government decreases age.
-You should specialize your regions for Culture and Legacy production.
-I don't have FOG2, so can't advise you.
-What provincial bonus do you mean?
-Yes.

As to the movement pic, you can't program a move that circles back to your original starting point in the same turn. That said, your army may eventually be exhausted and collapse if you try to blitz.
For new players: Grand Strategy AAR and Steam Guide: Tips for new players
Samstra's Trade guide: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1805684085

SuitedQueens
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Re: Questions on Game Mechanics from a Newb

Post by SuitedQueens » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:12 pm

Ty for answering all of my questions. I can imagine that it takes some time.
Gray Fox wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:15 pm
2. The percentage bonus also adds to loyalty. So a healthy region is a happy region.
Okay, that certainly changes the calculation. Is that factually correct on mechanical level? Does health bonus modifies welfare part of the loyalty bonus or it's certain hidden stat?
Gray Fox wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:15 pm
5. When a stack assaults a walled city or fights a battle, the stack is probably going to be exhausted or weakened. Planning to make a series of battles with the same force is not a good idea. So whether this might work as you want is secondary if the units just collapse.
That must be true if you don't export battles to FoG 2. If I take casualties during assault I disable Rise of AI mod for FoG 2 and abuse default AI "5 square" passivity exploit. BTW, I tested one emergency exploit. Your recommended "flying column" 8 light horses stack can fend off any infantry army by routing at least one enemy unit and then running around for the rest of the turns. Night time will come and game gives you W basically for free — 0% casualties vs 2-5 % casualties on the enemy side.
Gray Fox wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:15 pm
7. IIRC a region stays pillaged for a while. If you defeat a force of pillagers, but they ravaged your regions, then you are worse off. That's why I try to encircle my empire with Client States. If enemies raid and pilllage my CS regions, then my empire can crush them for a final solution while remaining unscathed.
Since it's so easy to get to 50 Relationship with specific nations by using "insult emissary" you can use excess resources and worthless frontier regions to get better regions or the whole provinces from the other factions sub-turn 20. It works like your plan and makes games more interesting (if you don't use remote regions mod).
Gray Fox wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:15 pm
8. -Taking an objective gains you Legacy/turn and a progress token. Decisions and moving up the Tier scale of your government decreases age.
I checked the forum: taking objectives reduces your Decadence Age Modifier by 20%.
Gray Fox wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:15 pm
-You should specialize your regions for Culture and Legacy production.
Seems like legit optimal strategy, but I like variety, flavor and deeper thinking. So I specialize my regions, create Trade Centers like Steam guide recommends, create buildings that help now and disassemble them later, etc. When I go for super-blitz strategy I focus gold instead of culture to support multiple fronts progression. My goal is too have fun and optimal game with specific restrictions and rules instead of going for the best strategy every time.
Gray Fox wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:15 pm
-What provincial bonus do you mean?
I mean stuff like Builder Hall with 22% bonus. If you have couple of them in your province, then only the highest bonus applies (22%) or they work similar to military buildings (22+11+11+...+n). What if you have Builder Hall and Warehouse (16%) built in the same province? Only the highest one applies, or they are cumulative 22+16=38%?

- Stationing your forces in the provincial capital provides 25% upkeep bonus?
I guess its true.
Gray Fox wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:15 pm
As to the movement pic, you can't program a move that circles back to your original starting point in the same turn. That said, your army may eventually be exhausted and collapse if you try to blitz.
What, why? I pretty sure I can do that. I checked right now and you do it by holding CTRL and queuing up circular path. That works for boss land and naval units.

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Re: Questions on Game Mechanics from a Newb

Post by Gray Fox » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:28 pm

Not a hidden stat. See pic.

The province menu shows all production, so the total reflects each region bonus, I should think.

I don't have FOG2, so I don't use that exploit. You're right about the CTRL move to circle back. I had not needed to use that for so long I had forgot about it.
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For new players: Grand Strategy AAR and Steam Guide: Tips for new players
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SuitedQueens
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Re: Questions on Game Mechanics from a Newb

Post by SuitedQueens » Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:01 pm

Gray Fox wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:28 pm
Not a hidden stat. See pic.

I don't have FOG2, so I don't use that exploit. You're right about the CTRL move to circle back. I had not needed to use that for so long I had forgot about it.
You can increase your welfare bonus by moving your pop to money and culture. I'm not sure that health helps here, cause I built 2 health buildings and waited 10 turns after that. Welfare part of the equation didn't move one notch. I double checked the manual and it doesn't say anything on that topic too. Maybe health provides some hidden bonus?

Light horse stack exploit allows to build WS too btw. I read up on pillage and it seems to be effective. Not only removes forage option, but also temporarily reduces food output, reduces some portion of culture stack permanently, has a chance to steal money and obtain slave. Now I don't see why you wouldn't do it since it doesn't take any extra MP.

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Re: Questions on Game Mechanics from a Newb

Post by Gray Fox » Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:19 pm

Sorry, It's from structures.
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SuitedQueens
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On Health Buildings and Loyalty Bonus

Post by SuitedQueens » Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:05 pm

I tested couple of regions. Loyalty from structures comes from structures that produce it e.g. taverns. Health buildings have nothing to do with this modifier. Loyalty drop on your screenshot happened because disassembling structures incurs loyalty penalty, which grows with every subsequent turn of disassembly and then disappears.

I quickly looked into the code by doing "health + loyalty" search in Data folder and found formula, which I won't describe here. Why? Because you can't alter any variables through gameplay except for building more health structures or getting +health decisions. The main part is conditions for getting the free pop and they are based on Loyalty. Region must belong to the established faction, don't have pillaged status and 75 or more Loyalty must be accumulated. Every turn you will roll 1d100 dice against the difficulty calculated through that formula.

And some values on military:
PROV_RECRUIT_OTHER_PERC 50 // do a sum of all xp boosting structures in province (except the local region) and apply this coeff when recruiting a unit (in addition to what is given by the local region)
PROV_RECRUIT_LOCAL_XPMAX 25 // the extra bonus from others regions can't be higher than 25 XP
PROV_RECRUIT_LOCAL_XPLVLMAX 2 // the extra bonus from others regions can't be higher than 2 XP level

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Re: Questions on Game Mechanics from a Newb

Post by Gray Fox » Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:31 pm

Thanks!
For new players: Grand Strategy AAR and Steam Guide: Tips for new players
Samstra's Trade guide: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1805684085

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Couple of tips

Post by SuitedQueens » Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:03 pm

For those lurkers who reading this thread, here's some of the tips and more convoluted game mechanics you proly didn't see in the other threads and you can benefit from or understand them better. All of these tips will help you to beat higher difficulties. Expect decadence management to be very hard on the Insane and Suicidal difficulties. I won't cover it here, as well as conclusions you can see in the previous posts:

1) I want to present overseas invasion tactic coupled with creating buffer zone by surrounding yourself with CS states. If you are not in war with enemy faction that you want to invade, you can easily do the next sequence:

If you have been using that Insult Emissary strategy, then at least 5+ nations should be at 50 Relationship level at the very early game sub-turn 20. You can exchange some worthless frontier regions (sometimes 1 is more than enough) and maybe some extra resources if needed to get one or two distant smaller nation regions (e.g. Picts).

Say you play Rome this game. Contact Carthage or Egypt (easy to get to 50 relationship) and trade that distant region that you acquired from the potential smaller CS faction for one or more of coastal regions. Besides, having them close removes penalties from not being neighbors and activates some trading relationship improvements. If you don't want to make Picts or whoever else your CS faction, then you can declare war on them and grab those frontier regions back by force.

2) 8 light cavalry stack dampens 1% of revolt as Gray Fox said, but the best part about it is that it's the immortal defending stack in the game. They proly will be flying around newly conquered frontier regions anyway, while your main stacks chilling in the provincial capitals for 25% upkeep discount. When someone attacks you export the battle to FoG 2 and the attacker MUST win in 25 turns. If your light cav will rout at least one enemy stack and run around after that night time will come and enemy will lose the battle.

3) Attacking on the same turn with all stacks instead of waiting and attacking with separate stacks every turn is a very good idea. But they need to arrive at DIFFERENT impulses. What can help you to achieve this and why is this effective?

The easiest option is having +1 or -1 movement general, cause your forces will be moving 1 impulse ahead or behind everyone even if they start at the same region. Second option is stationing your second stack one road or plain region away from your main stack or using back and forth movement (hold CTRL), which creates 1 or 2 impulse delay. If you have regional decisions, then force march is very helpful, allowing easier back and forth movement.

In the case of 2 or more stacks arriving at target region at different impulses no auto-merging occurs, so no penalty from changing generals. Stack that loses instantly retreats to aligned region even if they had no MP left. That way you can get 1 or 2 skirmishing stacks do considerable damage to the enemy army and drop them to exhausted state before attacking with your main army on the same turn. Expect harassing stacks to lose a lot of cheap manpower if you don't export these battles in FoG 2, where your main idea going to be to hold for 25 turns and lose at night time, while doing enough damage to the opponent stacks and retreat without taking any damage yourself.

Obviously the optimal option will be your 8-10 best skirmishers units (if MP allows) or light horses if they are equal to skirmishers in power (or if you are exporting to FoG 2), because of the pursuit damage reduction. Maybe you want to include some cheap infantry if your opponent has wide enough screen of skirmishers and you are not exporting. You can apply this knowledge to assaulting enemy cities too, but read specifics in the previous posts first. Secondary armies don't always have to be harassers. Sometimes you need couple of legit armies to bring down entrenched opponent and those strategies will help you to do this in 1 turn without too much losses.

4) Exporting to FoG 2 is another reasons to have separate skirmisher armies. You don't want to have skirmishers in your army if you don't have a lot of slingers and archers (basically slingers if used effectively) or massed archers. More cavalry and infantry always better against AI (even with Rise of AI mod) unless you want some skirmishers for screening purposes. Have light cavalry instead - it's the best utility unit in the game. They can set-up complex traps, remove ZoC's by pinning enemy with fall back square blocked, attacking flanks and being as good as regular skirmishers at fighting enemy light troops. The point is think in terms of FoG 2 systems and not what is the best composition for Empires. If you don't see enemy army, check ledger Faction tab to get the idea how strong it is.

5) Shuffling generals or splitting your stacks doesn't help to reduce military upkeep due to experience drop. Every experience level increases upkeep cost by 25%, so if you have trouble with gold you might think about disbanding highly experienced units first. You do that because when exporting you usually have enough advantage by damaging enemy stack before the main stack attacks, having better general and at least 1 star troops quality.

6) Pillaging don't get you money for free. Money will come from destroyed non-unique structure of that region and slaves will be deducted from the pop, so consider giving these to be candidate regions to throw away through diplomacy as in tip 1. Raiding was covered in the other thread extensively.

7) Smaller mechanics:
- War weariness levels kicks in after 15, 35, 70, 125 turns of war. Vassal gifts you region if your relationships are 51 or above, you have more than 3 gift points (+2 if you have an objective in vassal region and +1 for every region you own adjacent to the region in question), successfully roll 1d100 dice against 15 difficulty (15 % + 5% for every extra gift point per turn) and it's not their National Capital or World Wonder. Absorb possible only if it's their last region that is not National Capital or World Wonder and you successfully roll 1d100 dice against 10 difficulty (10% chance per turn). Ally will give the region back if it was owned by you 5 turns before alliance pact came into full effect.

- +/- 15 WS and BP difference considered to be normal or Negotiating for x0,85 coefficient to success chance. If you want to struck a harder deal with someone, you need 15-30 WS or BP to be viewed as Diplomatic for x1,25 coefficient, 30-45 WS or BP = Conciliatory for x1,5 coef, 45+ WS or BP = Generous for x2 coef. -15 to -30 WS or BP = Demanding for x0,5 coef, -30 to -45 WS or BP = Extorting for x0,35 coef. If you have an option between +10 BP or +15 BP, then always choose the later.

- Ships can only feed units that stationed on the land mass. Fleet gives away effectiveness point per supply delivered and eligible to do so only if it has full effectiveness. So, you want your supply fleet to be as big as your land army.

- Military Expertise is not important at all, because it requires too much investment. There are better ways to increase generals pool and you don't care about your garrisons strength. Economic impact is +8 Manpower and +5 Metal stockpile caps per Tier 1 Military building (+16 and +10 for Tier 2 Military, etc)

- To increase conversion rate build up your culture and loyalty. Increasing growth rate can be an option too, cause new pop will be your own nationality. In Unrest effect has 20% chance to disappear every turn.

- Administrative burden coefficient is x0,25 when Civ I, x0,5 for Civ 2 and x0,75 for Civ 3. Further reduced (x0,5) by having provinces instead of separate regions.
Don't be scared to spend more than you can handle and go into negative numbers. Here's milestones and penalties that come along:
In the red (gold) = 0 to -100 = Loyalty 5. Gain back 50 gold per turn.
Indebted (gold) = -100 to -1000 = Loyalty 10, Decadence Increase 5, Culture 10. Gain back 75-100 gold per turn. (10% of the current treasury when above 75)
Bankrupt (gold) = -1000 to -2500 = Loyalty 15, Decadence Increase 20, Culture 20. Gain back 100-250 gold per turn. (10% of the current treasury when above 100)
Lack of manpower (manpower) = 0 to -50 = Loyalty 10. Gain back 15 Manpower per turn.
Severe lack of manpower (manpower) = -50 to -300 = Loyalty 20, Military Buildings penalty 20%, Decadence for Conquest increase 15%. Gain back 30 Manpower per turn.
Crippling lack of manpower (manpower) = -300 to -1000 = Loyalty 30, Military Buildings penalty 50%, Decadence for Conquest increase 25%. Gain back 50-100 Manpower per turn.
Poor Equipment (metal) = 0 to -15 = Loyalty 10. Gain back 5 Metal per turn.
Poor equipment and maintainance (metal) = -15 to -100 = Loyalty 20, Exp Rate penalty 20%, Age Token gain/loss penalty 5%. Gain back 10 Metal per turn.
No maintainance at all! (metal) = -100 to -500 = Loyalty 30, Exp Rate penalty 50%, Age Token gain/loss penalty 10%. Gain back 25-100 Metal per turn.

- Disband gets back 3 times unit upkeep, unless it's some distance away from your regions (unsupplied range) and not laying siege on the enemy city (0,5 upkeep in that case). You can store equipment in non-province united regions by queuing up costly unit and then when 1 turn left until production replacing him with cheap unit to prevent stack depletion.

- Aging health degradation chance per turn affecting leaders and generals - age 30 = 10% chance, every 5 years = +1 %, for being decadent = +6%. Force ways to replace bad ruler or faction (can't be done before turn 10): 2% chance to die by an accident every turn, 7% to be replaced while under Decadent Government status every turn, 4% to be replaced under Old Government status, 4% to die when National Capital has In Unrest status, 3% to die when National Capital is besieged.

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Re: Questions on Game Mechanics from a Newb

Post by Pico2014 » Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:58 am

Very interesting, thank you!
I may not use all the hints, some of them exploit the games mechanics too much for me (light cav and fog2 exports..). But a lot of useful information nevertheless.
Again, thank you.

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Re: Questions on Game Mechanics from a Newb

Post by Pocus » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:31 am

Military Expertise also increases general quality, and barring military academies, it is not possible otherwise.
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Re: Questions on Game Mechanics from a Newb

Post by Swuul » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:47 am

Pocus wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:31 am
Military Expertise also increases general quality, and barring military academies, it is not possible otherwise.
But the effect is between non-existant and miniscule. Now, if military expertise really did have a noticeable effect to general quality (like for 10 or 20 fold to the current effect), then Military Expertise *might* be worth going for. As it is now, there is zero point to actively attempt to gain Military Expertise.
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Re: Questions on Game Mechanics from a Newb

Post by Pocus » Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:18 pm

Well, if doubling the chance to get a 2 instead of a 1 is trivial ...
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Re: Questions on Game Mechanics from a Newb

Post by Swuul » Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:38 pm

Pocus wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:18 pm
Well, if doubling the chance to get a 2 instead of a 1 is trivial ...
No, that is not trivial :) But the effort to get that is a massive investment in time and resources, a slippery slope (effectively, you must not conquer more regions, as it will bring the Military Expertise down unless the conquered regions have a lot of military buildings) not worth the effort. You get a much better (more than double chance to get 2 instead of 1) result with less effort and less time spent if you just wait until you have built Military Academies all over the place.

Now if you would get that doubled chance from Military Expertise 10 times faster and with 10 times less resourcses spent, then *maybe* it would be a worthwhile project (though my off-hand guesstimate is that it still would be faster and smoother to just wait until Military Academies are available). For example, give Military training camps and similar training military buildings a tenfold or twentyfold effect for Military Expertise.
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On Military buildings

Post by SuitedQueens » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:36 pm

Swuul wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:38 pm
No, that is not trivial :) But the effort to get that is a massive investment in time and resources, a slippery slope (effectively, you must not conquer more regions, as it will bring the Military Expertise down unless the conquered regions have a lot of military buildings) not worth the effort. You get a much better (more than double chance to get 2 instead of 1) result with less effort and less time spent if you just wait until you have built Military Academies all over the place.

Now if you would get that doubled chance from Military Expertise 10 times faster and with 10 times less resourcses spent, then *maybe* it would be a worthwhile project (though my off-hand guesstimate is that it still would be faster and smoother to just wait until Military Academies are available). For example, give Military training camps and similar training military buildings a tenfold or twentyfold effect for Military Expertise.
I completely agree with that, but I would like to add that all this applies only if you don't export battles to FoG 2. Military Buildings cost a lot of Production Points relative to their returns and you always aim to win by turn 100, so there are better ways to spend your PP. I'm playing Burgundi on Suicidal right now and win all of my battles with 0% losses (about ~4-8% loses total every fight, which drains one or two effectiveness points spread across all army) with 0-1 or no Generals at all.

To give you an idea you need to combine oblique order attack and feigned retreat type tactic that ultimately turns into real retreat, cause you don't want to engage refused flank and center at all costs. Basically you never rely on dices and RNG, but on maneuverability, traps and flanking instead to rack up that 40% score. Light Horse offensive armies require whole different mindset and playing for tricks and traps only. I can beat both default AI (very easy and predictable) and more sophisticated Rise of AI with aforementioned tactics. What matters is winning battles, not wars to rack up WS to Humiliate for Legacy Points and get other benefits unless that's the faction that owns a lot of your objectives.

OFC it's completely different when you don't export. Here's example of my best battle so far. I'm being on offensive here with no general and light horses stack against 0-2 General.
15_Offensive_light_cav.jpg
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Re: Questions on Game Mechanics from a Newb

Post by Swuul » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:13 pm

Personally I consider it kinda like "cheat-mode" if I export non-winnable battles to FoG2 (especially as that is not available in MP at all). Easy to play for draw in FoG2, which then translates to win in FOGE... You may have a different view of course. Personally I wouldn't make any gamedesign-decissions based on battles exported to FoG2 if/when that results in an absolutely different gaming experience than playing FOGE as FOGE :)
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Re: Questions on Game Mechanics from a Newb

Post by Pico2014 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:42 pm

+1

Although it is quite interesting to hear what may be possible with massive exploiting the export-function i would never consider to play the game like that. I mean, there is just no challenge. Fog2-export is a nice addon, not more.
It is well done and it can be fun and challenging to some degree (rise of ai mod recommended). But only if you play it like it is meant to. Without abusing it. Of course just personal preference.

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Re: Questions on Game Mechanics from a Newb

Post by SuitedQueens » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:07 pm

Swuul wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:13 pm
Personally I consider it kinda like "cheat-mode" if I export non-winnable battles to FoG2 (especially as that is not available in MP at all). Easy to play for draw in FoG2, which then translates to win in FOGE... You may have a different view of course. Personally I wouldn't make any gamedesign-decissions based on battles exported to FoG2 if/when that results in an absolutely different gaming experience than playing FOGE as FOGE :)
I never used defensive light cav once in my game so far. As you might know night percentage win don't translate to the damage to the enemy units. It's an emergency option and screenshot I posted was an offensive fight where I was racing against the clock against superior quality enemy troops and bunch of Mob to get that 40% win.

Also, I would like it to stay that way for the entire game. Meanwhile economy becomes stronger, which allows me to create more armies to attack multiple directions all over the world. I gotta admit that all big battles take up to two hours tho, so that's not for everyone.

BTW, if you think it's easy to win when you are largely outnumbered and down on quality, then you might try that strategy just to see that's not the case. I don't want to play out my battles in FoGE system, cause that will stop snowballing and will make for more boring game. Why boring? Cause it produces more empty turns. Usually I spend about 30 minutes on battles (unless that's a big battle) and 30 minutes on the world map. I usually follow the next order:
- managing all my armies and pressing sleep;
- recruitment, regional and national decision, CDR ranking check;
- checking food storage on stacks path, trade map, loyalty map, events like raids, etc;
- managing every region Production Points (how to split PP and which region don't build anything for the next 1-3 turns), building choices and pop allocation;
- going through Diplomacy with my trading partners and Full Cooperation distant factions, getting Cooperation treaties with those, who are not signed yet, insulting factions (usually the same ones every turn);
- viewing the world battles detailed reports (by scrolling over the map instead of reading ofc), reading major events (includes Provinces assemble/disassemble messages and fun random events) and the bottom of Diplomacy tab for who DOW'ed who and who made peace, etc.

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Re: Questions on Game Mechanics from a Newb

Post by Pocus » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:53 am

There is also the +15 to +35 initial XP gain from Military Expertise.

But I'm hearing you, and I'll boost the quality bonus to leader provided by ME.
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Re: Questions on Game Mechanics from a Newb

Post by Swuul » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:26 pm

Pocus wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:53 am
There is also the +15 to +35 initial XP gain from Military Expertise.

But I'm hearing you, and I'll boost the quality bonus to leader provided by ME.
Nice! :)
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Re: Questions on Game Mechanics from a Newb

Post by SuitedQueens » Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:41 am

Can someone explain how defense terrain type during assaults determined? I mean when is it gonna be Terrain_BGFortified_Except and when Terrain_BGFortified_Strong_Large? That about the only thing that I don't understand in this game. I know how Terrain_MaxDefenseCoeff works BTW, so you can ignore it.

Edit: nvm, I found Structures.csv file. But you can still give a tip on how to do a quick guesstimate and how breached walls affect these terrain types. Like Battleground becomes Breached_Battleground only when ALL walls are breached? And I can't find how to get Exceptional and Incredible status. Is it that 50 and 75 thing from defensiveness description?

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