AO1942??

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Bee1976
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Re: AO1942??

Post by Bee1976 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:55 am

Snake97644 wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:29 am
It would be a big risk and would upset a lot of people, but I think it would be a big and innovative departure.
Well, the chances are really small that they leave the historical path completly in the grand campain. Its a ww2 game so it would be quite normal that we get that historical route. I hope for 2 paralel dlcs per year on the eastern front now. One histrocial and 1 ahistorical. So ppl could decide what they want to play. And Slitherine can monitor what route is more popular.
But im not sure if that is a realistic hope. Development costs,
And ppl wait for allied corps, soviet corps, africa corps aswell.

For my part, i dislike the "play your best game, but you will recieve a defeat at the end" picture. But i love panzercorps, so i will buys the dlcs (all of them...no matter what they release), but if they let me choose i would prefer a pure ahistorical dlc series in the future or paralel on top of the histroical dlc route. And i would enjoy this for any other xCorps aswell. Hell, i would even play a SovietCorps vs Aliens after germany is defeated ( :oops: :mrgreen: )

Snake97644
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Re: AO1942??

Post by Snake97644 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:49 pm

Bee1976 wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:55 am
Snake97644 wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:29 am
It would be a big risk and would upset a lot of people, but I think it would be a big and innovative departure.
Well, the chances are really small that they leave the historical path completly in the grand campain. Its a ww2 game so it would be quite normal that we get that historical route. I hope for 2 paralel dlcs per year on the eastern front now. One histrocial and 1 ahistorical. So ppl could decide what they want to play. And Slitherine can monitor what route is more popular.
But im not sure if that is a realistic hope. Development costs,
And ppl wait for allied corps, soviet corps, africa corps aswell.

For my part, i dislike the "play your best game, but you will recieve a defeat at the end" picture. But i love panzercorps, so i will buys the dlcs (all of them...no matter what they release), but if they let me choose i would prefer a pure ahistorical dlc series in the future or paralel on top of the histroical dlc route. And i would enjoy this for any other xCorps aswell. Hell, i would even play a SovietCorps vs Aliens after germany is defeated ( :oops: :mrgreen: )
Yeah, I also hope for a dual line of dlcs, one historical and one ahistorical, but between the two I think I would enjoy the ahistorical more.

adiekmann
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Re: AO1942??

Post by adiekmann » Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:08 pm

Bee1976 wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:55 am
Snake97644 wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:29 am
It would be a big risk and would upset a lot of people, but I think it would be a big and innovative departure.
Well, the chances are really small that they leave the historical path completly in the grand campain. Its a ww2 game so it would be quite normal that we get that historical route. I hope for 2 paralel dlcs per year on the eastern front now. One histrocial and 1 ahistorical. So ppl could decide what they want to play. And Slitherine can monitor what route is more popular.
But im not sure if that is a realistic hope. Development costs,
And ppl wait for allied corps, soviet corps, africa corps aswell.

For my part, i dislike the "play your best game, but you will recieve a defeat at the end" picture. But i love panzercorps, so i will buys the dlcs (all of them...no matter what they release), but if they let me choose i would prefer a pure ahistorical dlc series in the future or paralel on top of the histroical dlc route. And i would enjoy this for any other xCorps aswell. Hell, i would even play a SovietCorps vs Aliens after germany is defeated ( :oops: :mrgreen: )
True, that did seem a bit unnatural in PC1's GC. You're kickin' ass and then on top of that you had the soft prestige cap...nice. :x

Germany's best hope for 'victory' in a "losing path" would be towards a negotiated peace. I don't know how realistic that even would have been after all of the atrocities they committed. Short of a long range V2 tipped with an atomic bomb, I don't think any of the Allies would have gone for such a thing even if they had suffered some serious setbacks.

An ahistorical path is difficult to plot. It takes some imagination to do well. I think they did a good job with it in PC1's Afrika Corps, but one for Soviet Union? Would they really be slogging it all the way across Soviet Asia? I don't think so. Organized (i.e. Red Army) resistance would have been broken, I think, if the Germans occupied all of European Russia/USSR. Now, lots of guerrilla warfare would undoubtedly have continued, but I cannot fathom anything beyond that for lots of obvious reasons.

So what then...??? Invade North America again after SeaLion 1944?? Even in the books/TV series "Man in the High Castle," it was the acquiring of the atom bomb that ultimately lead to the Nazis winning the war and occupying North America, not a long campaign across the United States.

And even then with the most creative mind, it's all guesswork and fantasy. That's why sticking to a historical path with small ahistorical situations makes more sense and is more believable too. Like the Germans and Italians seeing sense and evacuating North Africa after Torch and El Alamein and continuing the campaign with your core intact in Sicily for Operation Husky. :mrgreen: :wink:

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Re: AO1942??

Post by Snake97644 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:06 am

adiekmann wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:08 pm
True, that did seem a bit unnatural in PC1's GC. You're kickin' ass and then on top of that you had the soft prestige cap...nice. :x

Germany's best hope for 'victory' in a "losing path" would be towards a negotiated peace. I don't know how realistic that even would have been after all of the atrocities they committed. Short of a long range V2 tipped with an atomic bomb, I don't think any of the Allies would have gone for such a thing even if they had suffered some serious setbacks.

An ahistorical path is difficult to plot. It takes some imagination to do well. I think they did a good job with it in PC1's Afrika Corps, but one for Soviet Union? Would they really be slogging it all the way across Soviet Asia? I don't think so. Organized (i.e. Red Army) resistance would have been broken, I think, if the Germans occupied all of European Russia/USSR. Now, lots of guerrilla warfare would undoubtedly have continued, but I cannot fathom anything beyond that for lots of obvious reasons.

So what then...??? Invade North America again after SeaLion 1944?? Even in the books/TV series "Man in the High Castle," it was the acquiring of the atom bomb that ultimately lead to the Nazis winning the war and occupying North America, not a long campaign across the United States.

And even then with the most creative mind, it's all guesswork and fantasy. That's why sticking to a historical path with small ahistorical situations makes more sense and is more believable too. Like the Germans and Italians seeing sense and evacuating North Africa after Torch and El Alamein and continuing the campaign with your core intact in Sicily for Operation Husky. :mrgreen: :wink:
Yeah I have always found the PG/PC Sealion-US victory line absurd, I agree that an ahistorical line would have to end in some sort of negotiated peace which was unlikely. As you said it is all speculative, and as we have seen on these treads the opinions on the matter are varied, but ultimately the AO series is a sort of 'historical fiction' that the devs have been creating. If they create a story line where there is an end that is other than the historical, we can debate the plausibility of it, yet still enjoy it for what it is. They are artist after all, and are making a game not a history, so if they were to take such liberties I would not object. I am among those that enjoyed SCW and 1939, but I think we have all seen that the devs took a bit of heat for it.
I imagine that they will continue the trend as you said of having small ahistorical asides, like Sealion, since it is the more conservative route, but I still hope they will at some point do something more ambitious.

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Re: AO1942??

Post by Bee1976 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:36 pm

Snake97644 wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:06 am

Yeah I have always found the PG/PC Sealion-US victory line absurd
Me not. Well if you had predicted french generals or british genereals in 1938 that germany will beat france in a couple of weeks, they would have labeled that as absurd aswell ;)
On an ahistroical path, after you beat russia (what is hard to imagine for me aswell) you would have nearly unlimited ressources for a war vs GB and the US. Of course, from a realistic point of view germany had never a chance to beat russia, the britsh empire and the usa. Even a win vs russia seems completly impossible from a realistic point of view. But, this is a game, your that skilled general and your leading your panzers from victory to victory. Thats the benefit of an ahistorical path, no bonds of historical correctness. And this is not about "germany must win", but i play games to win in the big picture.
Thats easy in soviet corps and allied corps because they won wwII (to be honest i would enjoy playing ahistorical stuff aswell in soviet corps or allied corps as addition to the historical stuff).
But if you want the player to "win" in panzer corps gc, you need to create content thats hard to imagine ;)
adiekmann wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:08 pm
[

An ahistorical path is difficult to plot. It takes some imagination to do well. I
Not really, there are no bonds in an ahistorical path. For example, try to seperate th british empire from its colonies before sea lion. Invade australia, india and so on. Help Japan, so they can invade with you in the us territory. Start from south america and build your bridgehead there for an invasion.
There are unlimited possibilities.

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Re: AO1942??

Post by adiekmann » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:17 pm

Bee1976 wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:36 pm
Snake97644 wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:06 am

Yeah I have always found the PG/PC Sealion-US victory line absurd
Me not. Well if you had predicted french generals or british genereals in 1938 that germany will beat france in a couple of weeks, they would have labeled that as absurd aswell ;)
On an ahistroical path, after you beat russia (what is hard to imagine for me aswell) you would have nearly unlimited ressources for a war vs GB and the US. Of course, from a realistic point of view germany had never a chance to beat russia, the britsh empire and the usa. Even a win vs russia seems completly impossible from a realistic point of view. But, this is a game, your that skilled general and your leading your panzers from victory to victory. Thats the benefit of an ahistorical path, no bonds of historical correctness. And this is not about "germany must win", but i play games to win in the big picture.
Thats easy in soviet corps and allied corps because they won wwII (to be honest i would enjoy playing ahistorical stuff aswell in soviet corps or allied corps as addition to the historical stuff).
But if you want the player to "win" in panzer corps gc, you need to create content thats hard to imagine ;)
adiekmann wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:08 pm
[

An ahistorical path is difficult to plot. It takes some imagination to do well. I
Not really, there are no bonds in an ahistorical path. For example, try to seperate th british empire from its colonies before sea lion. Invade australia, india and so on. Help Japan, so they can invade with you in the us territory. Start from south america and build your bridgehead there for an invasion.
There are unlimited possibilities.
True what you say about the Battle of France, but invading far flung destinations like the Americas is a totally different matter. It's not even a military issue but one of industrial capacity. There's no way Germany could have built the material necessary (ships for instance) to conduct such an operation. Given enough time, perhaps, but we're not talking about a 5-10 year war holiday while they build up the naval and transport needed to conduct such an operation. It's fun to think about, yes, but it stretches the credibility a bit too far for me of what's realistic. No other country had the industrial capacity of the United States.

But you're right and entitled to suspend credibility because this a game, but for me it is taking it a bit too far. I disagree with your assessment of winning against the USSR. After all, who would have thought that Germany could have won in 1917? But lots of things would have to have gone differently, and with the Nazis insane racial ideology then no. Guerrilla warfare would have been (and was!) rampant all over such a big country that would have required vast resources to deal with. And who's to say that simply capturing Moscow would have "automatically" ended the war?

But in the end, it's the "what ifs" of history that are fascinating and interesting even though we have no real way of knowing what could have happened, especially when you drag it out even further into the future.

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Re: AO1942??

Post by QTMeo » Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:16 pm

Snake97644 wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:49 pm
Bee1976 wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:55 am
Snake97644 wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:29 am
It would be a big risk and would upset a lot of people, but I think it would be a big and innovative departure.
Well, the chances are really small that they leave the historical path completly in the grand campain. Its a ww2 game so it would be quite normal that we get that historical route. I hope for 2 paralel dlcs per year on the eastern front now. One histrocial and 1 ahistorical. So ppl could decide what they want to play. And Slitherine can monitor what route is more popular.
But im not sure if that is a realistic hope. Development costs,
And ppl wait for allied corps, soviet corps, africa corps aswell.

For my part, i dislike the "play your best game, but you will recieve a defeat at the end" picture. But i love panzercorps, so i will buys the dlcs (all of them...no matter what they release), but if they let me choose i would prefer a pure ahistorical dlc series in the future or paralel on top of the histroical dlc route. And i would enjoy this for any other xCorps aswell. Hell, i would even play a SovietCorps vs Aliens after germany is defeated ( :oops: :mrgreen: )
Yeah, I also hope for a dual line of dlcs, one historical and one ahistorical, but between the two I think I would enjoy the ahistorical more.

+1

Bee1976
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Re: AO1942??

Post by Bee1976 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:26 pm

adiekmann wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:17 pm
I disagree with your assessment of winning against the USSR.
Hm, maybe my english is a little too limited, but i dont understand that part of your answer ? I dont think that there was any chance for germany to beat the ussr. Even with peace on all other fronts, i dont think germany would have had a chance.

adiekmann wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:17 pm
It's not even a military issue but one of industrial capacity. There's no way Germany could have built the material necessary (ships for instance) to conduct such an operation.
Well, iin a fictional and ahistorical campaign invading the usa means that you as a player must have beaten GB and the USSR. In such an ahistorical campaign the story might lead you as a player to "go, win this this this and this, and force the british to surrender! We need their ships for futher operations" ;)
As mentioned before, everything is possible

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Re: AO1942??

Post by adiekmann » Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:35 pm

So
Bee1976 wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:26 pm
adiekmann wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:17 pm
I disagree with your assessment of winning against the USSR.
Hm, maybe my english is a little too limited, but i dont understand that part of your answer ? I dont think that there was any chance for germany to beat the ussr. Even with peace on all other fronts, i dont think germany would have had a chance.
Sorry, but no problem - your English is still much better than my German! :oops:

I was disagreeing with you on whether Germany could have beaten USSR. They beat them in WWI. I think they could have but at least several things would have needed to have been different, particularly the fact that Germany needed to invade as liberators, not as genocidal murders. Their treatment of POWs alone helped make Soviet soldiers fight harder once they realized that surrender meant almost certain death. But there are lots of other "what ifs" that have been talked about for ages that we will never know. How about if they kept their focus on Moscow? Didn't help Napoleon, but different time/age so maybe, maybe not. If the winter of 1941 was "normal" and not the worst ever. And that's just to name a few.

But still, it was overall unlikely. It is like your favorite sports team: If everybody is healthy and plays their best, we might win the championship! But how often does everything go right in anything, much less war? Never. So yes, possible, but otherwise I agree, still unlikely.

Better/more interesting question is what would have happened had they not attacked the USSR? :shock: There's a loaded "what if" question! Would war have been sooner or later inevitable with the Soviet Union? Would they still have gone to war with the USA (Hitler's most idiotic decision among a long list of idiotic decisions)? How would that have affected the campaign in N. Africa and overall against the British Empire?
Some scholars argue that the Nazi regime was not going to last even without the military reversals. What then? A different look EU? Think of all of those lost lives and what they might have contributed to the world in arts, science, etc.? :cry: Tons to ponder in the "What if" department. :)

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Re: AO1942??

Post by Bee1976 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:49 pm

Ah thx for the explanation, now i understand your point :)

Historicans debate what your saying, might it been possible that germany could have been able to win vs the soviet union? Your right, maybe with a lucky punch, and of course in the "what if" scenario of an ahistorical dlc you are absolutly correct.
And well in that dlc we are the panzergeneral that makes the diffrence ;)


But considering the sheer numbers, its hard to imagine that germany could have beaten the ussr in a long war. And for a fast war, they started way too late in the year, and got problems with overstretched supply lines. Fuel was a big problem, only a few weeks into barbarossa german troops could have moved faster, but they had to wait for the supplies and fuel.

I cant wait that a042 dlc and ao43 to be honest. Kerensky and his/her team (if there is a content team) did an amazing job so far. Im really really really curious about the ideas for the alternative ending and the road that follows.

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Re: AO1942??

Post by terminator » Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:02 am

On this official image, we can see observation balloons and radars.
The radars are already there, but I don’t know if they’ve been used(I haven’t played all the scenarios yet). Observation balloons appear to be brand new units not yet present.

screen_60c1f9c252630.jpg
screen_60c1f9c252630.jpg (590.37 KiB) Viewed 768 times

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Re: AO1942??

Post by asuser » Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:35 am

Radar:

Maybe, It's the same trait like in PC1:
- radar - initiative bonus to all planes within spotting range

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Re: AO1942??

Post by George_Parr » Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:42 am

terminator wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:02 am
On this official image, we can see observation balloons and radars.
The radars are already there, but I don’t know if they’ve been used(I haven’t played all the scenarios yet). Observation balloons appear to be brand new units not yet present.


screen_60c1f9c252630.jpg
I think those aren't really observations balloons but air-defense balloons. They had metal cables connected to them, which were quite dangerous to attacking planes. Sometimes the cables were even connected from balloon to balloon, or equiped with explosives. The Germans eventually equiped some planes with wings that could cut through the cables without harming the plane.

Basically, they existed to block the usual avenue of attack for dive bombers, forcing them to change tactics and operate in a way that was more dangerous to them.

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Re: AO1942??

Post by VirgilInTheSKY » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:05 am

terminator wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:02 am
On this official image, we can see observation balloons and radars.
The radars are already there, but I don’t know if they’ve been used(I haven’t played all the scenarios yet). Observation balloons appear to be brand new units not yet present.


screen_60c1f9c252630.jpg
Radar stations were used in both the base campaign and AO 1940 Operation Sealion scenario, but those balloons are new units, which should be for air defense to block the movement of aircrafts, you could find some pictures of Normandy landing zone that have these things, i.e. .

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Re: AO1942??

Post by Magni » Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:37 pm

Bee1976 wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:36 pm
Me not. Well if you had predicted french generals or british genereals in 1938 that germany will beat france in a couple of weeks, they would have labeled that as absurd aswell ;)
This kind of argument is beyond flawed. British and French generals in 1938 did not have the luxury of 20/20 hindsight and full access to all information on both sides.

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Re: AO1942??

Post by paragan » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:25 pm

I think it is was possible to defeat Soviet Union
if:
- Germany had Atomic bomb
- they won in North Africa (men, tanks, fuel ...)
- won Stalingrad, Moscow ...
- were better prepared for winter
- saved gen. Paulus + army too
- didn´t lost or didn´t fight in battle of Britain (so many dead experienced pilots)
- Japan invaded Soviet Union from west
- they behaved like humans (no concentration camps, genocide, ...) - and maybe Vlasov´s army will be 200-300 000
- was able to win hearts and minds of European countries
- Hitler let generals do their job
- made Italy Great Britain´s ally :wink: ok this was ugly or help Duce with little industrial revolution
- used that Soviet Union was not one nation - turn Cossacks or another nation against Stalin
...
there are many things that could happen different ...

For me invasion to USA looks more sci-fi - you can have better army, tanks, wunderwaffe but it is still logistic nightmare ...

PS: Devs are doing great job - if i can i would vote for little ahistorical path with happy end :shock:

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Re: AO1942??

Post by Vorskl » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:00 pm

paragan wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:25 pm
I think it is was possible to defeat Soviet Union
if:
- Germany had Atomic bomb
- they won in North Africa (men, tanks, fuel ...)
- won Stalingrad, Moscow ...
- were better prepared for winter
- saved gen. Paulus + army too
- didn´t lost or didn´t fight in battle of Britain (so many dead experienced pilots)
- Japan invaded Soviet Union from west
- they behaved like humans (no concentration camps, genocide, ...) - and maybe Vlasov´s army will be 200-300 000
- was able to win hearts and minds of European countries
- Hitler let generals do their job
- made Italy Great Britain´s ally :wink: ok this was ugly or help Duce with little industrial revolution
- used that Soviet Union was not one nation - turn Cossacks or another nation against Stalin
...
there are many things that could happen different ...

For me invasion to USA looks more sci-fi - you can have better army, tanks, wunderwaffe but it is still logistic nightmare ...

PS: Devs are doing great job - if i can i would vote for little ahistorical path with happy end :shock:
IMHO ahistorical is a VERY LIKELY 'what-if' version of controversial events, such as 2PzG keeps pressing on Moscow ignoring Kiev. As a result, you storm Moscow earlier BUT also receive a powerful strike from the south. Or let Soviets offense at Kursk.

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Re: AO1942??

Post by terminator » Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:59 pm

Little information on this official screenshot AO 1942. What battle ? Winterstorm ? See anything new in this picture ?

screen_60c1f9d648af3.jpg
screen_60c1f9d648af3.jpg (535.91 KiB) Viewed 433 times

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Re: AO1942??

Post by BaronVonKrieg » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:57 pm

terminator wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:59 pm
Little information on this official screenshot AO 1942. What battle ? Winterstorm ? See anything new in this picture ?


screen_60c1f9d648af3.jpg
its probably the damyansk pocket tbh

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Re: AO1942??

Post by BaronVonKrieg » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:59 pm

terminator wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:59 pm
Little information on this official screenshot AO 1942. What battle ? Winterstorm ? See anything new in this picture ?


screen_60c1f9d648af3.jpg
all that i can see was already present - stuka zu fuss, pe 3, mig 3 i15, il2, pioneers and dicker max/sturer emil

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