A look at the new Limited Stock feature

[AlbertoC]

With the new 1.02.01 update a Limited Stock feature has been added to Panzer Corps 2.

Slitherine's Edmon made a video about it, to showcase it and to talk a bit about it. Needless to say he's enthusiastic about the change.

[impar]

Seems interesting.
Although I feel 20 is too low, considering reinforcements during play, it only allows for one unit (or one overstrengthed unit) upgrade. 30 (2 units) seems more balanced.
And on infantry units the value should be multiplied by 1.5, since those are 15 strength units.
Curious on what happens on the second map\scenario. All units get 20 more strength available?
Will have to check when at home.

[impar]

Thought this topic would have had more posts by now...
Anyway:

Curious on what happens on the second map\scenario. All units get 20 more strength available?

Yep, on the second map the pool is replenished by the same amount. An untouched poool unit goes to 40, a depleted pool gets filled to 20.

And on infantry units the value should be multiplied by 1.5, since those are 15 strength units.

And the above should be implemented as soon as possible.

[adiekmann]

I agree that in many ways this makes historical sense, but it also doesn't in other ways. By setting/limiting everything to 20 (or whatever number you choose), you are saying that all types of units were equally rare, but that's not true. Some types of tanks were built and used in larger numbers because they required fewer resources to build, in both man-hours, rare materials, and cost. Too bad it can't be limited by type, not just uniformly across the board. For example, Tiger Is were built in very limited numbers compared to Panzer IVs, so why 20 for each? Then again, this is also partly reflected in the prestige cost of various units. Maybe all units should have been given a "rarity" rating, or something to that effect. But as it stands, I am not sure if I will be using it. Maybe that'll change in the future.

[Resolute]

I really like the idea of it but I am also not 100% sold on it. Especially on SCW you run out units really fast (I played with the default) and my aux. trait became also rather useless as well. I prefer not having a fixed value but have it tied to the prestige costs of units instead. I might give it another try while setting it to a higher value.

[impar]

For example, Tiger Is were built in very limited numbers compared to Panzer IVs, so why 20 for each?

This doesnt make sense. Sure, when Tiger I becomes available, you get 20* Tigers I, but you also get another 20 Panzer IV G to add to the ones you already have, another 20 Panzer IV H, another 20 Panzer IV E, ... you also get another Panzer III various models. You will have many more IVs and IIIs models available compared to Tigers.

Especially on SCW you run out units really fast ...

This setting also applies to the auxiliary italian forces? If so, the 20 for italian infantry is extremely low. Specially because the acquired auxiliary units dont pass to the next map.

*- Or 30, or whatever you choose.

[jeannot le lapin]

This seems interesting for the vehicles but for the infantry I have doubts because we have less choice.

[Edmon]

This seems interesting for the vehicles but for the infantry I have doubts because we have less choice.

You have 7 main infantry types (Bridge, Mountain, Para, Regular, Heavy, Cav and Engineer) which means 120 infantry / map and they will always be useful because they don't obsolete like tanks do. The longer you've had access to a tank, the more of them you'll have, which means older designs and designs that stuck around or that you didn't use will end up with more supply than tanks that come later or didn't stick around.

I am not sure you can honestly lose 120 infantry / map and not go bankrupt, but you certainly can lose 20 engineers a map if your army is 100% engineers.

This is an optional feature, it's not for everyone, but the major selling point to me is that it will force my hand into deploying infantry other than engineers, because the engineer stock pile will drain but stockpiles of units like heavy infantry will build over time. The same for the "latest" model of tank. When Panzer III's turn up, you'll actually want to use the other types because you can't just convert every tank to the PIIIH and ignore the IIIG because it's slightly inferior like you would normally.

I have never, in 500+ games of Panzer Corps 2, deployed heavy infantry because it's 2 movement really hurts it IMO. In limited supply, you may find yourself using them because you've got a huge pile of them sitting there waiting to be used. Much like real life, you'll have to use what you have, not what you wish you had.

[jeannot le lapin]

For me Infantry is the queen of battle. I deploy enough infantry indispensable to fight in certain fields (city, forest, mountain...).
I will test this new option on occasion.

OIP (1).jpg (55.27 KiB) Viewed 6639 times

Infantry king of all weapons

[VirgilInTheSKY]

I wonder how does this feature affect gift units in AO.
And also, will equipments no longer available still get replenished? Say, Bf 110 series will replace the older model once the new one became available, will these old models still get replenished? Will Denied Air Force and Denied Artillery prevent related equipment from being replenished?

[Edmon]

I wonder how does this feature affect gift units in AO.
And also, will equipments no longer available still get replenished? Say, Bf 110 series will replace the older model once the new one became available, will these old models still get replenished? Will Denied Air Force and Denied Artillery prevent related equipment from being replenished?

When a unit is retired, you'll stop getting replacements for it but you will keep any you have on hand.

[VirgilInTheSKY]

I wonder how does this feature affect gift units in AO.
And also, will equipments no longer available still get replenished? Say, Bf 110 series will replace the older model once the new one became available, will these old models still get replenished? Will Denied Air Force and Denied Artillery prevent related equipment from being replenished?

When a unit is retired, you'll stop getting replacements for it but you will keep any you have on hand.

Thanks. What about gifted units then? Will they still get unlimited spare? My guess is yes, but don't have time to test this myself.

[Stormchaser]

I wonder how does this feature affect gift units in AO.
And also, will equipments no longer available still get replenished? Say, Bf 110 series will replace the older model once the new one became available, will these old models still get replenished? Will Denied Air Force and Denied Artillery prevent related equipment from being replenished?

After a bit of testing, it looks like Gift Units still function as in a normal playthough.
The Panzer I Breda and Azur Infantrie you get at the start of a non-imported Core playthrough of 1939 and the Verdeja 2 you can buy in SCW don't get any replacement stock in the store, but can still be repaired like in a normal game.

This actually makes them more valuable in some ways, as they can be used to take hits or perform risky pushes with less fear of losses.
On the other hand, I'm sure at least some players will be at least somewhat turned off by not having completely finite replacements.

[sakura006]

I have played three missions in SCW at Generalissimus. Here is a few things I noticed.

1. Denied artillery/air force are now literally denied with this feature. Previously you get unlimited supply for your existing artillery/aircrafts, you just can't upgrade or buy new one. Now you no longer get supplied anymore, not even 20 per mission. Once you use up all the current ones you have in your stock pile, you can no longer deploy any artillery/aircrafts in the rest of campaign.

2. Limited stock also affects auxiliary units. You only get 20 Italian infantry per mission. I end up not buying any Italian units in my first three missions.

3. Since I took trophies of war, after three missions, I already swim in a huge amount of tanks/vehicles.

4. Given the limited stock, I end up using a small but elite force. I almost deleted half my army, and all my rest units are overstrengthed, especially for tank and recon. The more you overstrength, the less likely AI would attack you, and the more stock you can save.

5. There seems to be a supply issue for infantry, but you have unlimited supply of Azure as they are gift units. (I think I read somewhere that gift units are unlimited supplied, need to be confirmed).

This feature looks great, but I think it needs some polishing. Right now, it looks a lot like the Collector special challenge. I don't think it will add any more challenge if I play both.

For the engineer problem that Edmon mentioned, I think the real problem is that engineer is simply just overpowered in close combat. And over 90% of infantry combat happens in close terrain. Wehrmacht infantry, paratroopers, heavy infantry, and cavalry are essentially the same unit in close combat. They have the same close defense, the same soft attack, and the small difference in initiative barely matters in most situations. The mountain infantry are only slightly better than them because it has 2 close defense, and it can still easily get enough soft attack to maximize kill rate. The engineer problem is actually caused by a lack of diversity of these infantry.

[Edmon]

3. Since I took trophies of war, after three missions, I already swim in a huge amount of tanks/vehicles.

Yeah, industry connections and/or trophies is going to largely negate the feature in skilled hands, since these allow you to make additional stock out of nothing. Trophies has always been a trait that undermines any economic difficulty the game might have if you take it. I highly recommend you play limited stock without taking either of these.

For the engineer problem that Edmon mentioned, I think the real problem is that engineer is simply just overpowered in close combat. And over 90% of infantry combat happens in close terrain. Wehrmacht infantry, paratroopers, heavy infantry, and cavalry are essentially the same unit in close combat. They have the same close defense, the same soft attack, and the small difference in initiative barely matters in most situations. The mountain infantry are only slightly better than them because it has 2 close defense, and it can still easily get enough soft attack to maximize kill rate. The engineer problem is actually caused by a lack of diversity of these infantry.

Other infantry are cheaper, core slot wise and would be more effective if for example, you used Strat-Bombing + Infantry to make attacks or use light artillery + Infantry. Engineers are powerful because their "ignores entrenchment" feature means they can attack fully without any support, making them very easy to use. I do agree they are strong in close combat, two sets of normal infantry + 1 light artillery or 2 strat bombers would beat 2x engineers and have the same coreslot cost.

Limited stock is going to mean limited engineers anyway so I am hoping people will adopt different strategies to compensate.

[Bee1976]

The engineer problem is actually caused by a lack of diversity of these infantry.

Indeed. I never use normal or heavy weapon infantry. And because im not playing with mass encirclements i dont use paras either. bridge engineers are a cheap meatshield and guards for critical hexes and so on. Some more diversity would be great.

Limited stock is ok, it will force you to use other units, but i prefer playing with units because i want to play with them, and not because im forced to do it. I will tryout limited stock and im pretty sure i will use other infantry units then, but i would like some "tuning" so i want to use all infatry outside of "limited stock".

[leonardop]

I really like the idea of having limited amount of types of units , more realistic but finding having limited amount added per scenario is not working for me as at beginning of campaigns can only us one of each type of unit and auxiliary units and by the end campaign can have multiple amount of each type of unit . Also gift units get over used as not limited

Maybe a way of having limited amount of types of units per scenario available , thus making player use different types . For example max 2 pioneers , 1 tiger . Also this would help make more historical making some units more scarce

[Trepko]

Quick question: does your stock go with you from a campaign to the next one ?
If I finish AO39 with 30 PzIIC, will they be there in the 1st scenario of AO40 ? Or are the stocks completely reset to 0 between campaign ? (of course, in the case of an imported core)

[Snake97644]

Would it be possible to add the ability to adjust the slider in line with the ablity to change advance settings mid-campaign? I am using the limited stock option, but set it 40 per scenario. Now I am awash in equipment.
I kind of like the new setting, but I think 20 is a bit low for infantry. I have a well balanced infantry force, yet even so I was compelled to raise the slider to 40 solely for the infantry.

[Snake97644]

Quick question: does your stock go with you from a campaign to the next one ?
If I finish AO39 with 30 PzIIC, will they be there in the 1st scenario of AO40 ? Or are the stocks completely reset to 0 between campaign ? (of course, in the case of an imported core)

Good question, that would make a big difference. More incentive to rotate units into reserve to let the stock build for the next campaign season.