Retreat needs patching

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terminator
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Re: Retreat needs patching

Post by terminator »

When a unit retreats, this is not a good sign for the survival of the unit. Retirement is often done in haste, units retreating do not always have time to choose the best path. If you want to choose the best direction to retreat, you have to plan better in advance.
o_t_d_x
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Re: Retreat needs patching

Post by o_t_d_x »

Lost my best tank unit because of this broken retreat system:

In which direction does someone flee ? In the OPPOSITE direction, AWAY from the danger, away from the frontline. Thats very human, even soldiers work that way, even when they panic.

What did my super idiotic tank divison do instead ? It fled into the river bed. Not away from the enemy, even closer AND into a super bad position. Even the dumbest low live green beginner trooper knows, cover keeps you alive. Nobody would flee into the river when they could flee in absolut security to their comrades. Directly behind, one hex away, they would have been save.

Normally its very clear in war, in which direction the enemy is, and where your troops are. No german would have fled eastwards, on the eastern front. Believe me. :roll: (with the possible exception of encircled units or deserters of course...)

I am absolutly not willing to loose my best unit because of that retreat mechanic. PC one made it better.
nexusno2000
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Re: Retreat needs patching

Post by nexusno2000 »

Retreat abides by VERY strict rules.

I suggest trying out the puzzle scenarios.

They will teach you all about retreats.
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o_t_d_x
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Re: Retreat needs patching

Post by o_t_d_x »

I know how it works, but its not good. No soldier would flee in the direction the units flee in the game. Its not realistic, its not immersive, its annoying.
Sequester Grundleplith, MD
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Re: Retreat needs patching

Post by Sequester Grundleplith, MD »

o_t_d_x wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:42 pm I know how it works, but its not good. No soldier would flee in the direction the units flee in the game. Its not realistic, its not immersive, its annoying.
Panicked retreats don't lend themselves toward rational thinking. There are countless historical examples of soldiers fleeing into rivers, swamps, frozen lakes, the sea, etc and getting wiped out for it.
Kerensky
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Re: Retreat needs patching

Post by Kerensky »

Excerpt from written transcript of oral description of the hecatomb of Lysyanka:
"It was during that night, or the evening before, that the encircled Germans, having abandoned all hope of ever being rescued by Hube, decided to make a last desperate effort to break out..."

"Driven out of their warm huts they had to abandon Shanderovka. They flocked into the ravines near the village, and then took the desperate decision to break through early in the morning... So that morning they formed themselves into two marching columns of about 14,000 each..."

"It was about six o'clock in the morning. Our tanks and our cavalry suddenly appeared and rushed straight into the thick of the two columns. What happened then is hard to describe. The Germans ran in all directions. And for the next four hours our tanked raced up and down the plain crushing them by the hundred. Our cavalry, competing with the tanks, chased them through the ravines where it was hard for tanks to pursue them. Most of the time the tanks were not using their guns lest they hit their own cavalry. Hundreds and hundreds of cavalry were hacking at them with their sabres, and massacred the Fritzes as no one had ever been massacred by cavalry before. There was no time to take prisoners. It was the kind of carnage that nothing could stop till it was all over. In a small area over 20,000 Germans were killed."
Seems to me the difference between orderly withdraw, forced retreat, and complete rout spans an immense spectrum.
Kerensky
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Re: Retreat needs patching

Post by Kerensky »

Sequester Grundleplith, MD wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:51 pm
o_t_d_x wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:42 pm I know how it works, but its not good. No soldier would flee in the direction the units flee in the game. Its not realistic, its not immersive, its annoying.
Panicked retreats don't lend themselves toward rational thinking. There are countless historical examples of soldiers fleeing into rivers, swamps, frozen lakes, the sea, etc and getting wiped out for it.
https://youtu.be/bhQe2cjr5XQ?list=PLUOc ... V9RY&t=806

https://youtu.be/cTy2Ghbt3Vs?list=PLUOc ... V9RY&t=790
Retributarr
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Re: Retreat needs patching

Post by Retributarr »

Maybe i'm just paranoid or Prejudiced …. but!, rightly or wrongly... i'm getting the impression that the AI seems to almost always retreat to it's own lines... while the Players units seem to most of the time retreat towards the Enemy or its zones of control!.
DefiantXYX
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Re: Retreat needs patching

Post by DefiantXYX »

Well, in 99% it doesnt matter how the AI is retreating, so you dont care or dont pay attention. But it does matter if your units are retreating and get killed so of course you get that feeling.
Like I said before, I see no reason for such a complex mechanism, it was always fine the way it was in pc1.
o_t_d_x
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Re: Retreat needs patching

Post by o_t_d_x »

Retributarr wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:03 am Maybe i'm just paranoid or Prejudiced …. but!, rightly or wrongly... i'm getting the impression that the AI seems to almost always retreat to it's own lines... while the Players units seem to most of the time retreat towards the Enemy or its zones of control!.
Exactly my impression too. AI units retreat in a way, so they cant be killed. Sometimes i have to attack them 4,5 times because of that. They flee like in pcone, away from me, but with much more movement.

From now on i only accept retreats from the enemy away, in my direction. (of course only if their is a free hex) Everything else is reload.

By the way: panic is no excuse for total disorientation. At least not for elite troops, like mine are.
o_t_d_x
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Re: Retreat needs patching

Post by o_t_d_x »

DefiantXYX wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:11 pm Like I said before, I see no reason for such a complex mechanism, it was always fine the way it was in pc1.
I coudnt agree more. In german we call it "Verschlimmbesserung."
nexusno2000
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Re: Retreat needs patching

Post by nexusno2000 »

If your units retreat into unfavorable terrain it's because you're overextending and not supporting them properly.

Instead of focusing on (well known by now) game mechanics, focus on how to avoid setting yourself up for unfavorable retreats.

Problem solved.
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DefiantXYX
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Re: Retreat needs patching

Post by DefiantXYX »

nexusno2000 wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:48 pm If your units retreat into unfavorable terrain it's because you're overextending and not supporting them properly.

Instead of focusing on (well known by now) game mechanics, focus on how to avoid setting yourself up for unfavorable retreats.
The Ai is often wasting a whole army just to kill one of my units. You cant always anticipate what is coming and sometimes it happens that one of your units get in danger. If it now retreats stupidly it is just annoying, when there is a simple solution: just go one step back take some cover between allies instead of moving directly into the enemy.
malic
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Re: Retreat needs patching

Post by malic »

o_t_d_x wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:15 pm
Retributarr wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:03 am Maybe i'm just paranoid or Prejudiced …. but!, rightly or wrongly... i'm getting the impression that the AI seems to almost always retreat to it's own lines... while the Players units seem to most of the time retreat towards the Enemy or its zones of control!.
Exactly my impression too. AI units retreat in a way, so they cant be killed. Sometimes i have to attack them 4,5 times because of that. They flee like in pcone, away from me, but with much more movement.

From now on i only accept retreats from the enemy away, in my direction. (of course only if their is a free hex) Everything else is reload.

By the way: panic is no excuse for total disorientation. At least not for elite troops, like mine are.
I agree completely with this. The AI always retreats differently (for the better) from the player retreat.
nexusno2000
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Re: Retreat needs patching

Post by nexusno2000 »

malic wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:09 am
o_t_d_x wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:15 pm
Retributarr wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:03 am Maybe i'm just paranoid or Prejudiced …. but!, rightly or wrongly... i'm getting the impression that the AI seems to almost always retreat to it's own lines... while the Players units seem to most of the time retreat towards the Enemy or its zones of control!.
Exactly my impression too. AI units retreat in a way, so they cant be killed. Sometimes i have to attack them 4,5 times because of that. They flee like in pcone, away from me, but with much more movement.

From now on i only accept retreats from the enemy away, in my direction. (of course only if their is a free hex) Everything else is reload.

By the way: panic is no excuse for total disorientation. At least not for elite troops, like mine are.
I agree completely with this. The AI always retreats differently (for the better) from the player retreat.
The AI and player units follow the same retreat rules. There is no difference.
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Re: Retreat needs patching

Post by Bee1976 »

o_t_d_x wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:15 pm Sometimes i have to attack them 4,5 times because of that. They flee like in pcone, away from me, but with much more movement.
No offense intend.

But uhm that sounds terribly wrong. Maybe you are playing with real crazy challenges and neg trait settings or the problem lies way deeper than the retreat mechanic. Again, no offense intend, really not. But even in SCW, with inferior equipment with manstein on, this should never happen that you have to attack a unit that often to kill it and force it 4-5 times to retreat.
At least this never happend to me.

Well the retreat mechanic is not important in 9 of 10 cases. In the last case of those 10 you can play nice around a retreat route, like forcing enemies in a wanted direction for a good frontline positioning, or a mistake occured.

The AI likes to hunt down expensive (prestigewise) exposed and unsupported units, so if one of your units gets "hammered" im pretty sure you overextended your army. Like greenknight said.
You can turn this AI beavior into an advantage. Even with weak units, if you form a good positioned and supported defense line, the AI wont attack and instead block and wait in most missions. so your airforce can finish them of one after another.
And nothing is more fun than an exposed "neubaufahrzeug" with a camoflaged fat 15cm or emil behind it. AI will pay the price xD

Good positioning and support (or a lot of luck) is mandatory on higher difficulties.
charge62
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Re: Retreat needs patching

Post by charge62 »

Echoing Kerensky:

Retreats/withdrawals are among the most complicated military maneuvers. In these situations, chaos is only a heartbeat away in the best of circumstances. Military games and even simulations can't capture the friction involved.

Those who have served in the military have seen SNAFU in action. With the best equipment, supply, training, weather, and etc., chaos still results.

Imagine then situations in which all the cards are stacked against a commander or are perceived to be that bad among lower level units. Then add fatigue, hunger, weather extremes, fear/terror, poorly maintained equipment, low supply, lack of confidence in superiors, and a likely sensation of abandonment to get the full picture.

Of course, the terminology gets murky fast.

Perhaps the most successful "withdrawal" in history was what the Germans pulled off after Cobra. Hitler's interference led to incredible losses at Falaise, still the bulk of German manpower and an incredible amount of equipment were preserved.

On the Eastern Front, the Germans became experts at orderly withdrawals, evacuations, retreats on very large scales. (A potential for future scenario designers.)

Another success, on a smaller scale, was the evacuation of British and Polish paratroopers after their failure to take and h hold Arnhem. A night withdrawal across a river, with smaller units, often consisting of the wounded, holding a thin front line.

If you want to compare other manifestly challenging military actions, consider the following and their chaos potential.
- Night passage of lines
- Night passage of lines while in contact
- Assault river crossings
- Night assault river crossings
- Response to being encircled (or dealing with rumors spreading among units that they have been encircled)

For all of these situations, control at command level is illusion. A great deal rests on the competence, motivation, training, and discipline of commanders, NCOs, and soldiers at all levels. One mistake, one unit cracks, one failure of discipline and unit cohesion and all bets are off.

And don't forget luck. She is fickle and always ready to pounce.
Jonesy1760
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Re: Retreat needs patching

Post by Jonesy1760 »

I still see no logic in some retreart routs...this has been a bug a boo since PC2 was released...please correct this... :(
Trepko
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Re: Retreat needs patching

Post by Trepko »

Jonesy1760 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:24 am I still see no logic in some retreart routs...this has been a bug a boo since PC2 was released...please correct this... :(
Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean there is no logic. Retreat follows a very strict logic. You may don't like it, but there is no bug in it.
DefiantXYX wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:11 pm Well, in 99% it doesnt matter how the AI is retreating, so you dont care or dont pay attention. But it does matter if your units are retreating and get killed so of course you get that feeling.
Like I said before, I see no reason for such a complex mechanism, it was always fine the way it was in pc1.
PzC2's retreat mechanic is necessarily much more complex than in PzC1, because in PzC2 units can retreat as far as their mouvement point allows them, whereas in PzC1 all units could only retreat 1 hex away. So, in PzC2, there are 100x much more retreat possibilities than in PzC1. This of course requires more rules to adress every case.
o_t_d_x wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:15 pm
Retributarr wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:03 am Maybe i'm just paranoid or Prejudiced …. but!, rightly or wrongly... i'm getting the impression that the AI seems to almost always retreat to it's own lines... while the Players units seem to most of the time retreat towards the Enemy or its zones of control!.
Exactly my impression too. AI units retreat in a way, so they cant be killed. Sometimes i have to attack them 4,5 times because of that. They flee like in pcone, away from me, but with much more movement.

From now on i only accept retreats from the enemy away, in my direction. (of course only if their is a free hex) Everything else is reload.

By the way: panic is no excuse for total disorientation. At least not for elite troops, like mine are.
1 : yes, you're paranoïd. :lol:
2: don't waste your time on reloading. You can reload everything you want, same situation will always end up in the same retreat.
DefiantXYX
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Re: Retreat needs patching

Post by DefiantXYX »

Trepko wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:39 am
2: don't waste your time on reloading. You can reload everything you want, same situation will always end up in the same retreat.
Yes, but sometimes your unit will not even retreat and survive easily.
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