Slitherine

Based on feedback and first hand experience with our released mod we're wanting to test out the potential changes listed below. If interested please respond to this thread. Also, we intend that this thread to be used freely for any constructive feedback on our mod.

Update package

The above update package contains a read me file that lists the files changed and where they go. As always, please backup before copying over any existing files. This update package is incremental and requires that the original BJR mod be in place.

Change Log (from original mod). By the way, the architect behind most of this is Borger. He's able to do amazing things with the editor and under the "hood" of CEaW.

1) Increase the German max manpower from 858 to 1058.
At start manpower remains at 858 (81% of max)

2) Change the organization tech increases the following way:
* Tech 1 (+3 instead of +5)
* Tech 2 (+8 instead of +6)
* Tech 3 (+10 instead of +8 )
* Tech 4 (+6 instead of +7)
* Tech 5 (+3 instead of +4)
* Tech 6 (+3 as before)

3) Reduce the Russian at start antitank value from 2 to 1.


4) Moved the following Russian units from the locations near Omsk (Siberia)
to the northeast map corner.
* 3 armor units
* 2 corps units
* 1 fighter
* 1 tactical bomber

Add a Siberian reserve that will only be released from the reserve on the turn USA joins the Allies. A message
about the release of the Siberian reserve is added to the USA joins the Allies message.

Siberian reserve in the northeast map corner that can’t move until USA joins the Allies:
* 2 armor units
* 2 motorized units
* 2 corps units
* 1 fighter
* 1 tactical bomber

All these units are named so people can see they’re Siberian.

See new house rule 32.


5) Moved the British motorized unit from Southampton to south of Birmingham,
added a garrison in Southampton.

6) In order to pay for a free leader (i.e., see new house rule 31) changed at start PP's to:
* German 70 PP's (from 20)
* Italy 25 PP's (from 0)
* Britian 70 PP's (from 0)
* France 25 PP’s (from 0)
* USSR 40 PP's (from 0)

7) Move the 1st Canadian corps from adjacent to Halifax to Ottawa.

8 ) Reduce the US production by 8 by reducing Washington from 16 to 12 and the Eastern USA resource from 10 to 6.

9) Reduce the north atlantic convoy from max 110 to 100. Reduce the south atlantic convoy from max 70 to max 50.
Keep the mid atlantic convoy at max 140.

10) Reduce the at start tech level in industry:
* US industry reduced from 3 to 2
* Russian industry reduced from 2 to 1
* US at start war effort increased from 3 to 4
* Russian at start war effort increased from 3 to 4

11) Added a new Country.class file that prevents oil levels from every dropping below -1.
This prevents the Axis oil levels late in the game for going into and staying negative
for the remainder of the game.

12) The port of Cherbourg has been moved from directly north of the city to the hex southwest of it.
This change helps in the UK defense against Sea Lion and later helps the Axis defense against
"Overlord". We made this change because it was possible for the Axis to land (i.e., unload) a unit
in England the same turn they loaded it (on transport) if the port of Cherbourg was occupied.
With this change this tactic is no longer possible.

13) New House Rule 31. Free Leader.
Germany, Britain and France must build a leader on the first turn of the game (September 1, 1939).
Italy and Russia must build a leader at the first opportunity after they activate (i.e., enter the war).
These leaders may be freely assigned to any unit.

14) New House 32.
The eight Russian units that start the game in the northeast map corner near Omsk in Siberia
are part of the Russian defense against Japan and may not be moved until the USA is at war.
These units, which have Siberia in their name, are:
* 1st Siberian tank army, 2nd Siberian tank army (two armor corps)
* 1st Siberian guards army, 2nd Siberian guards army (two motorized corps)
* 3rd Siberian army, 4th Siberian army (two infantry corps)
* 1st Siberian Fighter Corps (one fighter unit)
* 1st Siberian Bomber Corps (one tactical bomber unit)

Hi,
I would like to be considered.

Regards,
PK

I would like to explain the reasons for the following changes.

1. Increase the max German manpower from 858 to 1058.

Most Axis players start to get problems with getting to 75% manpower early in 1942 and to 50% manpower in the second half of 1943. This means that German units repaired will perform worse, especially after getting below 50% manpower.

I think these bad effects start too soon and we had examples of people complaining about German air units suffer equal or more losses than Russian or Allied despite having better tech.

The change to max manpower means Germany will receive 2 extra manpower per turn. It means he can build 3.5 extra corps units per year and maintain the same manpower. This should help Germany getting manpower problems a bit later. It will be more important late in the war because getting below 50%, 25% and even worsr 0% is devastating to the Germans. E. g. building new garrisons as speed bumps with below 0% manpower means they have -2 survivability and -2 quality. It means a 10 step garrison can be annihilated by a single attack. This happened in the real war with the last phase of using Volksturm troops. That happened after 1945 and not from the Summer of 1944 as can happen now.

I don't know exactly how this change will work out and therefore playtesting is very important. If it helps Germany too much then we can always reduce the increase from 858 to 958 instead. Time will tell. Hopefully this change will address to some point the poor performance of high tech German air units in 1942-1943.

2. Change the organization tech increases

This was done to maintain almost the same gap in efficiency between the Russians and Germans as in the vanilla game without having them 3 tech levels apart. The difference in tech levels is still 2 as before in the BJR-mod. Since the efficiency increase at tech 2 and tech 3 is two more than before it makes it even more important for Russia to get organization tech increases. This means the Russians will have to commit to general tech as well.

This change will also help a bit against the French getting a general to boost their units. Playtesting after giving each major power PP's to build a general showed that the Germans suffered more than before taking out Paris. Since the efficiency gap between tech 1 (France) and tech 3 (Germany) has increased by 4 it almost cancels out the 25 PP's France will use on a 3 leader (yields +6 efficiency). France can sacrificee 15 PP's (a garrison value) on turn 1 to get the 4 leader (+8 efficiency), but that's his choice.

3. Reduce the Russian antitank value from 2 to 1.

This brings the Russian tank levels back to the vanilla game values. The main effect is that the Russian tanks don't have air defense 2 at the start of Barbarossa, but air defense 1 instead. It means they're more vulnerable to Luftwaffe attacks. That should reduce the risk of the Russian player building hordes of armor units to counter attack fiercely in 1941.

4. Siberian reserve

Several BJR-mod players have felt the Russians are too strong in 1941 and can seriously hurt the Germans even before the winter. Some proposed to remove several Russian armor and fighter units. But that could make them too weak for the German 1942 offensive.

One player proposed we could place some Russian units in the reserve and only release them at a certain moment. We all know what happened when the Japanese attacked USA. Then very strong Russian units were sent from the Russo-Japanese border line to the Moscow area to save the capital. So we decided to do something similar to take away some offensive Russian firepower in 1941 without making them permanently weaker.

3 Russian armor units were removed and 2 placed in the reserve. The third armor was changed into 2 motorized unit. 2 corps, 1 fighter and 1 tactical bomber were all removed and placed into the reserve. So it's a substantial number of units Russia can release from the reserve once USA joins the Allies.

All these units were named Siberian, e. g. like 1st Siberian Tank Army to indicate they're units transferred from eastern Siberia.

I believe this change should make the situation more precarious for Russia in 1941 and discourage the Russians from build lots of air and armor units in addition to leader. If they do so they won't have enough corps units to stop the Germans. Since they start with only 4 armor units instead of 7 they need to build many more to overwhelm the Germans. That will come at a heavy price of having too few units to form a good defensive line to hold Moscow, Leningrad, Rostov etc. in 1941.

5. Moved the British motorized corps in Southampton to near Birmingham and added a garrison in Southampton

This is done to slightly delay the time this unit can arrive in France. The extra garrison was added to help a bit against Sealion. In an earlier version of the mod from 3-4 weeks ago we added 2 garrisons. One of these have been removed since the addition of a British leader in London and one garrison seemed to be enough to deter the Germans from starting Sealion without taking a big risk.

By moving the Halifax corps a little further away from the port we ensure this unit won't arrive before the start of Case Yellow and it won't get the benefit of the British leader in London for some turns. But it will arrive early enough to protect Paris if they want to. This change won't have a big effect, but it would prevent the Allies overwhelming Germany in Belgium.

6. Giving at start PP's to each major power that they must use on a leader.

We've reduced the at start PP's for France and Italy from 40 PP's to 25 PP's. This means they can afford a 3 leader instead of a 4 leader unless they "sacrifice" PP's intended for land units.

7. Moved the British corps near Halifax to near Ottawa

This is done to delay the time this unit can arrive in France, Britain or Egypt. We saw an Allied strategy where 4 British land units plus 2 air units were placed in France prior to the Germans attacking Belgium. That meant the Germans suffered heavy losses and didn't take Paris until August. The British lost all their land units so they suffered too.

By moving the Halifax corps a little further away from the port we ensure this unit won't arrive before the start of Case Yellow and it won't get the benefit of the British leader in London for some turns. But it will arrive early enough to protect Paris if they want to. This change won't have a big effect, but it would prevent the Allies overwhelming Germany in Belgium.

8. Reduce the US production by 8

The BJR-mod upgraded the US production quite a bit and the effect was hordes of Allied air units late in the war. That meant the Axis lost the game too early. Now we reduce the US production slightly. It won't have a lot of effect early in the game due to a low US war effort, but late in the war it will mean USA will get 8-10 PP's less per turn. It's almost equal to a fighter and strategic bomber less per year.

9. Reduce the max convoy value by 10 for the north Atlantic convoy and 20 for the south Atlantic convoy.

This should reduce the British income slightly and also the Russian income after Barbarossa. It won't have a big effect early in the game due to a low British war effort.

10. Reduce the at start tech in industry for Russia and USA by 1. Increase the at start war effort for Russia and USA from 3 to 4.

The BJR-mod increased the industry start tech from 0 to 3 for USA and from 0 to 2 for Russia because v1.07 changed the max labs
from 13 + industry tech to 10 + industry tech. If both Russian and USA started with 0 industry it meant they could only build
10 labs when they enter the war instead of eventually 13 or 12. That meant they got far behind Germany tech wise.

A side effect was that USA and Russia got a very high production late in the war helping to the steamroller effect Germany was
crushed by. So lowering the industry level by 1 means both countries will lose about 10% income when the war effort maxes
out. But both countries can get higher industry tech by researching it. So they can counter this loss by building several labs in
general.

The war effort was increased from 3 to 4 to counter the one lower industry tech level. This means USA will get war effort 11
and Russia war effort 10 the first time the war effort increases. it means they can both build a lab. If we didn't make this
change the Russia would only get 9 after the increase and would have to wait 4-5 more turns before building the first lab.

Changes 11-14 have been discussed before.

I think the MAC version should work, but I have never played on a MAC myself.

Hi,
This sounds really cool Good work.

PK

These changes look great! I wanted to mention that me and my friend came up with a few additional houserules to the mod that we enjoyed and don't affect play balance significantly - but add additional realism to the game.

(1A) To simulate the fact that Belgium would have seen the way the wind was blowing if Germany attacked Holland (an attack on Holland being a dead giveaway the Germans were going through Belgium), Germany may not DOW on Holland without also DOW on Belgium. This helps the Allies, but see the next two changes.
(1B) To simulate initial "surprise" by the Blitzkrieg, the French and British may buy - but not place - a commander until the turn Germany DOW on Belgium or the Germans take a Maginot fort. This reduces Allied efficiency significantly in the early stages of the main German attack.
(1C) on the turn of a German DOW on Belgium (or Belgium/Holland), the Allies may move into Belgium but may not attack any Axis forces in Benelux by land, sea, or air.

(2) One side may not have more than 1 sub adjacent to an enemy port (to prevent gaming with secret blockades of ports).

(3) The Italians may not use their amphibious capacity outside of the Mediterranean until Gibraltar or the Suez canal are under Axis control.

Stauffenberg wrote:I would like to explain the reasons for the following changes.

1. Increase the max German manpower from 858 to 1058.

8. Reduce the US production by 8

9. Reduce the max convoy value by 10 for the north Atlantic convoy and 20 for the south Atlantic convoy.

10. Reduce the at start tech in industry for Russia and USA by 1. Increase the at start war effort for Russia and USA from 3 to 4.

I think some of these rules came from my game with ronnie where Allies (me) built tons of air units and basically won the game in '43. If you want to playtest these rules, i am open to play a test game. In my game with ronnie, in late '42 i had 10 TAC 12 FTR. There was no chance for germany to hold and in fact DDay happened in early '43 and it was easy.

the change about mapower maybe will help germany to delay a little getting in yellow (which is deadly expecially for airunits). it's true that it happens too early.
I still think allies (not russia) have too much PP to play with even with the change. In my game with ronnie, the change would have meant just 1-2 less air units in late '42 for allies. I still think it should be impossible for allies to build 20 fighters/bombers by late '42 cause it unbalance the game.

ronnie suggested to play with you to test this.

raffo80 wrote:

Stauffenberg wrote:I would like to explain the reasons for the following changes.

1. Increase the max German manpower from 858 to 1058.

8. Reduce the US production by 8

9. Reduce the max convoy value by 10 for the north Atlantic convoy and 20 for the south Atlantic convoy.

10. Reduce the at start tech in industry for Russia and USA by 1. Increase the at start war effort for Russia and USA from 3 to 4.

I think some of these rules came from my game with ronnie where Allies (me) built tons of air units and basically won the game in '43. If you want to playtest these rules, i am open to play a test game. In my game with ronnie, in late '42 i had 10 TAC 12 FTR. There was no chance for germany to hold and in fact DDay happened in early '43 and it was easy.

the change about mapower maybe will help germany to delay a little getting in yellow (which is deadly expecially for airunits). it's true that it happens too early.
I still think allies (not russia) have too much PP to play with even with the change. In my game with ronnie, the change would have meant just 1-2 less air units in late '42 for allies. I still think it should be impossible for allies to build 20 fighters/bombers by late '42 cause it unbalance the game.

ronnie suggested to play with you to test this.

Another idea we kicked around was force pool limits. However; we didn't want to burden the players with this much bookkeeping and we wanted players to have the flexibility to decide what types of forces to build. But if this is indeed an issue we may have to rethink this. If we do add force pool limits one possibility is to have Timothy make that part of the CEaW game engine. Thoughts?

I haven't found manpower to be quite as big of a problem as mentioned. The hit at 75% is fairly subtle. It does have more of an effect on air units, but the German leaders are good enough to make it not too significant. 50% manpower is a bigger deal - but in my own games that tends to happen either later in '43 or early '44. That being said, I think the manpower change is probably good, overall.

The industry level changes (and to a lesser extent the convoy changes) will have a subtle but cumulative and ultimately significant effect on the Allies, particularly Russia. I've tended to think of the Russians as the "zombie army" in the mod - they just keep coming. It should be a little less so with this change.

I definitely don't like force pool limits. Far too much to keep track of and not really neccessary, given that manpower limits and troop costs and values and production/industry give you a lot to play with in terms of balancing the game.

yes, putting limits on what type of unit you can build is not the best solution. however the problem exists. Germany is limited by PP and oil so they can't build such huge airforce, and even if they build, they can use just for 2-3 turns and then run out of oil.

Believe me, if allies just go for airpower they can have 20 air units by late '42 and then make a DDay which is impossible to stop. the best solution would be having different manpower pools for navy/air/land. Germany kept having high quality pilots till '44 despite having infantry at 60%

yellow manpower is deadly for air units even with leaders, in all my games both as germany or allies, when manpower gets yellow germans lose always more steps in air fights regardless of tech. quality affects battles more than tech, for airfights at least. i never noticed this in vanilla game though, meaning that maybe the better tech gap always allowed germans to compensate the yellow manpower for air results.

raffo80 wrote:I think some of these rules came from my game with ronnie where Allies (me) built tons of air units and basically won the game in '43. If you want to playtest these rules, i am open to play a test game. In my game with ronnie, in late '42 i had 10 TAC 12 FTR. There was no chance for germany to hold and in fact DDay happened in early '43 and it was easy.

the change about mapower maybe will help germany to delay a little getting in yellow (which is deadly expecially for airunits). it's true that it happens too early.
I still think allies (not russia) have too much PP to play with even with the change. In my game with ronnie, the change would have meant just 1-2 less air units in late '42 for allies. I still think it should be impossible for allies to build 20 fighters/bombers by late '42 cause it unbalance the game.

ronnie suggested to play with you to test this.

That is true. I like to not make too big steps when it comes to altering the balance. If not you will have the pendulum effect when you change from one side to the other trying to find the balance point. So it's better to take smaller steps and see how it works.

We also have to think about how all the Allied players who DON'T go for bombers and fighters will do. I don't want to see that the players are forced to play in a certain way (maximizing air units and land in France in 1943) to have a chance. Different strategies should have a chance to succeed. Especially the historical advance via Algeria, then Italy and later western France.

Hopefully the changes we made now will make it a bit easier for the Axis to hold out longer. I've always felt that it's not the lack of PP's, but the lack of manpower and oil that prevented my builds. I try to stay above 75% manpower for as long as possible, but soon after you launch your 1942 offensive in Russia you simple can't do it anymore and have to repair depleted units to drop below 75%. Then the problems start here and there with less efficient air and land units. But it's possible to live with manpower below 75%. When it goes below 50% then you will really start to struggle.

I made a very good point about strong US air presence already in 1942. Such air force should be there in 1944 for Overlord. I think the main problem is with USA and not the other countries so why not reduce the at start US manpower so they suffer manpower issues if they build too many units too early. USA didn't have the capacity as early as 1942 to get a large air force etc.

I've reduced the US at start manpower from 61% to 45% so they need 30 turns before they reach 75%. That means they get 75%
manpower in April 1941. That is still early enough to start building naval units for the November 1941 war entry. But you can't
crank out lots of units in 1941 / 1942 without suffering -1 quality loss. Then even the US fighters should fight the German fighters in even terms except the Germans have better tech.

I send the updated 1939.scn file to Ronnie and other playtesters and Ronnie will add this file to the ZIP file he put on the Internet.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I would like to playtest the latest changes against with me as the Axis. Please PM me your email address.

Update package

Change Log. 6-1-2009.

1. Updated Country.class file so it will work with both Java 1.4 or 1.5. The previous one distributed initially with this update only worked with the newer Java version 1.5 and would cause CEaW to crash on start up under Java 1.4.

2. Reduced the US at start manpower from 61% to 45% so they need 30 turns before they reach 75%. That means they get 75%
manpower in April 1941. That is still early enough to start building naval units for the November 1941 war entry. But you can't
crank out lots of units in 1941 / 1942 without suffering -1 quality loss. Then even the US fighters should fight the German fighters in even terms except the Germans have better tech.

You are right. i try as well my best to keep manpower in the white...but it's impossible after you start offensive against russia. and once you get in yellow, it's more losses you have due to reduced quality. In land units the effect i think is counterbalanced by terrain, better tech and so it's doable for germany to play in yellow and hold. But airpower suffers too much...don't know why. it seems the game combat engine "values" quality way better than tech.

I sent you an email so we can test it. as written in the email, you are right and maybe the USA manpower together with the changes to germany should balance the game.

As it is, the mod is pretty much balanced and historical up to '42. In russia i think it's very balanced even if i never met an opponent in BJR mod building tons of tanks though, only once in vanilla and i managed to kill all of them.

what about hardcoding most of all house rules? is it possible? the north africa sea lane, has been replaced, in this update, by transportation loops?

leridano wrote:what about hardcoding most of all house rules? is it possible? the north africa sea lane, has been replaced, in this update, by transportation loops?

We're working on it.

Just to keep track of the games testing out the new tweaks I thought we could list out the games being played. We can number them in the order that they're reported in this thread and use that as a reference for discussing the game and impacts of the tweaks. Also, this can serve as a tool to ensure that everyone who wants to help with the play testing has a game.

==============================================================================================
(g1) Ronnie (Axis) vs. Borger (Allies).

(g2) Ronnie (Axis) vs. Gabrielle (Allies).

(g3) Randy (Axis) vs. Ronnie (Allies).

(g4) Joe (Axis) vs. Ronnie (Allies).

(g5) Borger (Axis) vs Gabriele (Allies)

(g6) Borger (Axis) vs Joe (Allies)
===============================================================================================

Hi I guess it's Randy (Axis) vs Ronnie (ALLIES).

You can add the following to the ones you already wrote.

Borger (Axis) vs Gabriele (Allies)
Borger (Axis) vs Joe (Allies)

Stauffenberg wrote:Hi I guess it's Randy (Axis) vs Ronnie (ALLIES).

Yes it is. That would have been quite a feat though. Valkyrie! Thanks for the catch.

Hi,

I'm starting a new game. Is it possible to get the new version of the mod to use?

Also if I install it will it affect ongoing games that I have or not?

Thx

rkr1958 wrote:Update package

The above update package contains a change log file that lists the files changed and where they go. As always, please backup before copying over any existing files. This update package is incremental and requires that the original BJR mod be in place.

See first post in this thread for full details of the changes.

jjdenver wrote:Also if I install it will it affect ongoing games that I have or not?

No, with the possible exception of the new Country.class file, which prevents Axis oil from dropping below -1. If both opponents update this file in an ongoing game then you won't have any problem. Personally, I'd recommend everyone update that file to this new one because it corrects what I believe to be a major flaw where the Axis oil would go negative and stay negative for the rest of the game in 1944.

If this concerns you then PM me and I can provide you an alternate approach to all this.