HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

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primevalangel
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HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

Post by primevalangel »

Hi guys, I've tried to understand how some players managed to increase their Money Income to HUGE sums, but I do not understand the following (calculated from info in the diplomacy panel):

1. in MP match "Succession wars", Athenae (played by jorgefano) has +4500 Money per turn, mostly because he has Commerce (nation-wide) bonus +130%.
Calculated Commerce bonus: 25% + 10% + 15% + 5% + -20% = +35%
Where is the extra +95% bonus comming from?

2. in MP match "Lets Go Brandon", Macedonia (played by jorgefano) has +4500 Money per turn, mostly because he has Commerce (nation-wide) bonus +95%.
Calculated Commerce bonus: 15% + 5% + -10% = +10%
Where is the extra +85% bonus comming from?

3. in MP match "no major players or greeks", Rhodus (played by jorgefano), has +4000 Money per turn, mostly because he has Commerce (nation-wide) bonus +80%.
Calculated Commerce bonus: 25% + 10% + 5% + -10% = +30%
Where is the extra +50% bonus comming from?

4. in MP match "La caida de Roma", Syracusae (played by jorgefano), has +3500 Money per turn, mostly because he has Commerce (nation-wide) bonus +65%.
Calculated Commerce bonus: 25% + 10% + 5% + -20% = +20%
Where is the extra +45% bonus comming from?

5. in MP match "La legion perdida", Seleukos (played by arscnp), has 900+ Money per turn, mostly because he has Commerce (nation-wide) bonus +35%.
Calculated Commerce bonus: 5% = +5%
Where is the extra +30% bonus comming from?

6. in MP match "Roman Republic Roleplay", Seleukos (played by arscnp), has +1000 Money per turn, mostly because he has Commerce (nation-wide) bonus +20%.
Calculated Commerce bonus: 5% = +5%
Where is the extra +15% bonus comming from?

7. in MP match "no dlc", Aethiopia (played by MarcusAmeliusScarus), has +1500 Money per turn (2nd place; Rome in 1st place matches calculation), mostly because he has Commerce (nation-wide) bonus +25%.
Calculated Commerce bonus: 5% = +5%
Where is the extra +20% bonus comming from?

What am I missing?

PS: adding screen-shots no longer works.
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Re: HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

Post by vonSchlausewitz »

As nearly all of those are hellenistic states, I suppose the additional bonus comes from the stoas which give a nation wide, cumulative commerce-bonus.
Can't explain Aithopia though.

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Re: HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

Post by primevalangel »

Thanks vonSchlausewitz, I did not know about this building, since I haven't played Greek nations. So it seems the Diplomacy panel info is false, since it shows 5% under "An empire of wealth" instead of, say 50% (if you have 10 Stoa). It makes sense now.

PS: Aethiopia captured some regions with Stoas from Egypt, which explains his extra bonus. Aethiopia cannot build them.

Still, my first impression is that this building is quite OP, far better than any other building, and is not even tier 3, or national wonder. And since it is restricted to Greeks only, it makes the Greek states quite OP, the longer the match goes.

I was curios at what the purpose is supposed to be, so I looked at the Grognerd's Guide description for Stoa:

Code: Select all

This structure (along with the very similar Judean Merchant District) is probably broken. It gives a 5% faction-wide Commerce bonus, which since you can build more then one of these means that the bonuses can STACK. Two of these is 10%, 3 is 15%, etc. Throughout your entire nation.

So these can and do end up generating stupendous amounts of Money in a large empire. As a result, the structure has already been nerfed once in a recent patch, by allowing for the possibility of random "market crashes" which will drain your treasury of around 100-200 Money or so, each time they happen. I believe the odds of this occurence are supposed to be about 1% per Stoa.

In my opinion this nerf was probably not enough. A good-sized empire can still manage to build 10 or more of these by mid game, and just shrug off the market crashes, even if they occur every turn. So, don't be too surprised if these get a further nerf in a future patch.
It seems I'm not the only one believing this building brakes the game, since it can be so easily exploited. It gives up to 81 money/year, which is bigger than a bank, plus +5% nation-wide commerce bonus. The "81 m/y", which depends on actual trade goods, is a more realistic simulation of reality than the dumbed-down "5% nation-wide commerce bonus", so why have both? Why have 2 mechanics simulating the same 1 thing from reality?

It seems to me that the "81 m/y" alone simulates the Greek fair economy pretty well, and that the "5% commerce bonus" should be removed. So what am I missing? What do you guys think?
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Re: HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

Post by Pocus »

Don't forget that the more you have the easier it is to get a money crash event.
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Re: HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

Post by primevalangel »

Thanks Pocus, but loosing 100-200 Money every 5 turns or so, is like non-existent when you gain additional +2000 money each turn (if you double your 2000 money income with just 20 Stoa, with 20x1% crash chance).

I do not think these Stoa were that powerful in reality, even if they resemble somehow to a modern commercial center (from what I read on Wikipedia), which would explain the bonus to the existing other commercial buildings in the same region (considering they are ALL moved in this Stoa). Still it would not explain the bonus to buildings in regions without Stoas. So I still think the 5% bonus is not realistic-enough for FOGE.

Balance-wise, this building makes the Greek nations OP compared to all other nations (maybe even Rome). An experienced player playing non-Greek, has no chance of winning against another experienced player playing Greek (unless you manage a quick-win in the first 100 turns or so). Even an alliance has low chances of defeating a single Greek after turn 100+.

So unless I play Greek myself, I will avoid playing against experienced Greek players, in order to not waist another 6 months of daily play in 4+ MP matches that I have no way of winning against the HUGE economy the Greek players have.
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Re: HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

Post by Pocus »

The 100-200 loss is erroneous, this would be a mistake to remove a flat value whatever the nation, the income.
The formula makes you lose at least 100 money, with a max amount of x% of your current treasury, x being the number of stoas.
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Re: HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

Post by primevalangel »

Thanks for the clarification. And what is the chance for the crash to happen? Still NumberOfStoas% ? (so I can calculate the end-profit)

The end result is still that Greeks have huge amounts of money by turn 100 or so (10,000 to 20,000 money, even with these crashes), and 2000 CP army. No gamer can beat that with a non-Greek nation after turn 100+, no matter how well he plays (maybe except Rome, or a very powerful alliance).

Don't get me wrong, I do not want better balance at the cost of realism. If this market was that powerful in reality, to increase GDP with 5% with just 1 building, I would not complain.
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Re: HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

Post by Pocus »

1% cumulative chance yes.

The Stoa as done in game is probably not meant to represent the reality of things, often buildings have an effect that is somehow linked to reality but are not the exact representation of the building, that's a game, not a pure simulation. I trust you if your experience in MP says that Greeks nations can roll over others because of the Stoa, I'll probably nerf it some then.
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Re: HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

Post by grahamed »

primevalangel wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 7:41 pm Thanks for the clarification. And what is the chance for the crash to happen? Still NumberOfStoas% ? (so I can calculate the end-profit)

The end result is still that Greeks have huge amounts of money by turn 100 or so (10,000 to 20,000 money, even with these crashes), and 2000 CP army. No gamer can beat that with a non-Greek nation after turn 100+, no matter how well he plays (maybe except Rome, or a very powerful alliance).

Don't get me wrong, I do not want better balance at the cost of realism. If this market was that powerful in reality, to increase GDP with 5% with just 1 building, I would not complain.
Primevalangel is there really evidence to say “No gamer can beat that with a non-Greek nation after turn 100+“ so are you actually saying noone has ever won an MP game except with a greek nation? That does not sound right at all.

For example surely you have played in games where the Persians have won in more than 100 turns? I think stoa played well are good but then most of the famous civilisations have some advantages if played well, thats the nature of the game is it not?
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Re: HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

Post by primevalangel »

Pocus wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 9:16 am I trust you if your experience in MP says that Greeks nations can roll over others because of the Stoa, I'll probably nerf it some then.
Awesome, thanks. It would make non-Greeks viable to play again (for me at least). Removing the 5% nation-wide bonus, or at least lowering it to 1%, or similar, should fix it. Removing only the regional money income, on the other hand, I'm pretty sure it would not.

grahamed wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:46 am For example surely you have played in games where the Persians have won in more than 100 turns?
I never play the 550BC campaign in MP (since I do not like the unrealistic hard-coded Media regions becoming Persian, even if at peace), so I don't know how powerful Persians are. But they, like Rome, might be the exception. Thanks for pointing it out.

grahamed wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:46 am so are you actually saying noone has ever won an MP game except with a greek nation?

Of course a much-more-experienced-player can beat a less-experienced-player with a much weaker nation. I am only discussing experienced-player against experienced-player.

grahamed wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:46 am Primevalangel is there really evidence to say “No gamer can beat that with a non-Greek nation after turn 100+“

All 7 games I listed at the beginning of this topic were around turn 100 or so (since I started them all at about the same time, around half a year ago).

I played as medium powers (Nubia, Dacia) and even as big power (Maurya), and got between 300 and 800+ money income (biggest with Maurya, after conquering Egypt, Nubia and Ethiopia). I manage building and population jobs manually each turn, to maximize advancement, so I'm not sure it is possible to do much better than this.

The main opponent (experienced player) also plays medium powers and managed to get 4500 (Athenae), 4000 (Rhodus) and 3500 (Syracusae) money income.

As you can see, his income is already 4-8 times bigger by turn 100+, which means, with the extra money, he can recruit at least lots of additional mercenaries, continually. No way you can beat that.
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Re: HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

Post by jorgefano »

I agree with you on everything primevalangel. The Stoa skew the game a lot in favor of the Hellenes. In fact, Antigonus and Seleucus, led by an experienced player, are unstoppable. Unless there is a strong coalition against them.
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Re: HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

Post by grahamed »

Well hopefully any significant change will ( as usual) get a thorough beta testing to ensure it does not cause more problems than it solves
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Re: HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

Post by elxaime »

I think the economic system needs tweaking, particularly how it interacts with army sizes. Some thoughts:

- In game after game, I have seen leading nations, usually Hellenistic, reach the point where they have so much gold the reduction events are near-meaningless. At that point, the only limit on expanding your army is usually metal and population, which seem to work well in "capping" army sizes

- that said, the current model assumes that so long as you have gold, you can increase your armies ad infinitum. While certain elite units get capped or cost increasingly more, that doesn't seem the case for the rest. I have to think in reality you'd also "hit the roof" on the remaining units. The only ones that shouldn't get a hard/soft cap, IMO, as the lowest common denominator rabble troops

- the game lacks meaningful army attrition. While areas can support with food only to a point, in this era there would be added issues related to safe water supply (more critical than food in terms of how quickly it can impact an army) as well as diseases for masses of troops encamped in small areas, whether in siege or field

- likewise, unit quality needs to diminish over time, as veterans die/leave service and are replaced by less experienced. In the game, once you build all those max-star armies, they stay superstars for eternity

The lack of control factors like the above is why: a) it is so easy to beat the AI; b) so many MP games end up with a monstrous-sized faction, "too big to fail," with endless gold, and that cannot be beaten, even by a coalition of whoever is left.
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Re: HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

Post by grahamed »

elxaime wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 10:20 pm I think the economic system needs tweaking, particularly how it interacts with army sizes. …
Yes I can see alot more benefit of such a review than tweaking one buildings impacts
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Re: HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

Post by acemiami45 »

I agree with you on everything primevalangel. By turn 80 you can have a greek player with 10 stoas. That is 50% increase on commerce in every region he owns. That is very achievable if he avoids any conflicts with human players.
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Re: HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

Post by ynshen »

I want to add something for debate. It's not that easy to maintain a good relationship with all the human neighbors. It eats a lot of money too. Just most of militant players don't see it. Right from the beginning. Movements of vasal's belonging and fund other player's war mashine cost a huge chunk of money.

"Every region he owns" is a bad way of reasoning. It actually cost money because of administration burden if the region doesnt have building in economy. But the fact is, money-playing factions have miserabel military expertise at the beginning. Meaning you have to fill slot with military buildings to mitigate this draw back. It can be a very painful process.

Contrar to the screw with stoa (for which it also needs some practices) I think the current setting is very unfriendly to new and inexperienced players. They can easily fall into prey of militarly strong faction (even only imaginerily strong in history). The layer of politics is very much dragged behind because of this fascistic trend of imagination. And this is costing the game more new players to join.

Yes, hellenistic nations have stoa. But most of them also have to build two armies (one for land one for sea, Seleucid not but they have to have the second army in the war against Maurya), other factions have less or no such problem or the option of not building navy.
acemiami45 wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:54 pm I agree with you on everything primevalangel. By turn 80 you can have a greek player with 10 stoas. That is 50% increase on commerce in every region he owns. That is very achievable if he avoids any conflicts with human players.
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Re: HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

Post by Swuul »

Stoa "shoppingcenters" were historically requiring some sort of police force to keep things in order. Perhaps keep the +5% commerce bonus (or lower it to 4% to slightly tone down the effect), but also offset that by a 2% or 3% deduction in manpower (which would represent the "police force" and thus not available for warfare), in a kind of a "mini-carthaginian" effect. Stoas would then have a real drawback (seriously, the risk of losing a relatively miniscule amount of money from an event shouldn't even be mentioned as a drawback) and it would be up to the player to make a choice what to focus on.
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Re: HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

Post by vonSchlausewitz »

I agree that the stoa is one of the most powerful buildings in the game and I will always build them if they are offered to me.
But they are definetly not the unbeatable one win factor that outplays every other aspect of the game.
You can always match the income of the greek states by carefully building your economy. A well designed trade network easily can compete with the stoas.
As to my impression many players in MP games seem to be ignorant of this.
I have achieved 5-10k income per turn with states like Dacia or Aithiopia by turn 100 in MP before by optimising the cr.. out of my regions.
Also, money can't beat archers. :D
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Re: HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

Post by primevalangel »

Thank you guys for taking the time to share your opinions on the issue I raised. I really appreciate it.

Swuul wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:11 am Perhaps keep the +5% commerce bonus (or lower it to 4% to slightly tone down the effect),
While your solution (manpower penalty) might fix the game balance, it does not fix the fact that the increase in income of all nation's buildings (due to building a Stoa) is unrealistic. Yes it increases the income of the buildings in the region and nearby regions (through bonuses to wine, oil, leather, salt) if you build a shopping-center, and this is realistic. But in reality it cannot do this also for buildings in far-away regions (not then, and not even in present times). This is why there are now shopping-centers in all (bigger) cities. And back then, Greeks built them also in every major city, not all in one place, because they will not have any effect outside the region it was built in.

Image

So I would still remove any nation-wide bonuses for Stoas (or any other such building) and instead add bonuses for all the affected commerce sectors (besides wine, oil, leather, salt, add also Fish, Dates, Drugs and Herbs, Figs, Furs, Ivory, Lumber, Nuts and Seeds, Papyrus, Silk, Wax, Wild Beasts, Wine, Pottery, Grain, Glass, Tools, Weapons, Luxury, etc. etc etc.), to have a proper simulation of historic commerce (bonuses affect only nearby regions income, not all far-away regions).
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Re: HUGE Commerce-bonus (nation-wide)?

Post by Laboratorium »

Late game the Stoa become a huge factor in winning. If you see greek players having 15-20 stacks of 40 army and huge plus money, then you know that the game balance is totally broken.

The only point in stoas is, that you take a long time to get them. Even if you go mixing buildings for 20 turns it is not guaranteed that you get one.

And for saying that you can compete by cleverly building your trade networks: The greek player may also do this and simply get an exorbitant amount of income.

You still can loose despite all money, if you do no have access to good army compositions. But if you have not, you probably have no large number of stoas either, because that all needs thinking ahead and preparation.
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