Ancient Greek Mod v1.4

Schweetness101
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Ancient Greek Mod v1.4

Post by Schweetness101 »

Hello! I've been working for a little while now in conjunction with Snugglebunny and Kronenblatt on an Ancient Greek Mod (starting out as a branch off the Dark Ages Britain Mod)

The download link for the mod can be found here **uploaded 4 MAR 2023 to be compatible with latest FoGII and w/ some text updates from Kronenblatt**:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... share_link

To install, download the Ancient Greek Mod v1.4 .rar file at the above link (click download link on the folder, don't click into the folder) and extract it to:

C:\Users\YourName\Documents\My Games\FieldOfGlory2\CAMPAIGNS

you may also extract or copy it to:

C:\Users\YourName\Documents\My Games\FieldOfGlory2\MULTIPLAYER

to use it in multiplayer games. It is a substantial download with new skins and banners, with the new skins being mostly from TT mod.

The mod takes inspiration from Field of Glory: Immortal Fire tabletop, De Bellis Antiquitatis v3.0, Men of Bronze, Lost Battles, The Wargames Research Group: Armies of the Greek and Persian Wars, the blog 'A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry', and a few other sources including some Osprey Publishing material.

It includes many Greek army lists for roughly 430 B.C to 370 B.C, and related, peripheral non-Greek lists. The main idea is to help simulate hoplite warfare more particularly from the Peloponnesian War, the Theban-Spartan War, the Corinthian War and some of the Sicilian Wars using new rulesets and lists. We split the Greeks mostly into Leagues, with the Peloponnesian, Delian and Boeotian Leagues being the major players (although we may further split those more by time period later to be more accurate). The current lists are:

Achaemenid Persians
Aitolian League
Black Sea Greeks
Boeotian League
Carthage
Delian League
Iapygians
Illyria
Macedon (early and Philip II)
Peloponnesian League
Phokis
Syracuse
Tarentum
Thessaly
Thracians

We've tried to concentrate in a deep but narrow way on a handful of lists, giving each of them their own gameplay style and character, while trying to stay true to the historical source material. But, on that score, we could certainly use some feedback from the knowledgeable people on the forum!

Ruleset changes include anarchy charges and refusals, shieldwall adjacency bonuses, flank and CinC changes, changes to ranged unit ammo, terrain disorder changes, and more to try and make an experience custom tailored to the warfare of the time and place. Please see the pdf changelist at the above link, as playing will be a bit bewildering without familiarizing yourself with the changes first.

See the first page of the Dark Ages Britain mod thread for detailed info on how adjacency rules work for shieldwall (i.e. Hoplites here) in the mod: https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=106417

As with the TT mod, credit for the non-vanilla skins and banners goes to 'Little Big Men Studios' and Stephen Hales.

Please enjoy and feel free to provide historical, gameplay, or other feedback!
Last edited by Schweetness101 on Sat Mar 04, 2023 4:08 pm, edited 6 times in total.
My Mods:
Ancient Greek https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=977908#p977908
Dark Ages Britain https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=106417
Anarchy (Medieval) https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=987488#p987488
kronenblatt
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Re: Ancient Greek Mod?

Post by kronenblatt »

I haven’t really contributed that much at all: only part of the descriptions for the different army lists.
Last edited by kronenblatt on Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Schweetness101
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Re: Ancient Greek Mod?

Post by Schweetness101 »

kronenblatt wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 9:05 am Great idea! I’d definitely be interested in such a mod.

I can contribute with literature references, and modding knowledge and efforts, but no actual detailed historical knowledge.
we (me and snugglebunnies) have an in progress build up currently, i'll send you a PM

EDIT: this thread is now the mod thread, rather than a speculative thread gauging interest.
My Mods:
Ancient Greek https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=977908#p977908
Dark Ages Britain https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=106417
Anarchy (Medieval) https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=987488#p987488
Schweetness101
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Re: Ancient Greek Mod v1.0

Post by Schweetness101 »

reserved for future updates or details
My Mods:
Ancient Greek https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=977908#p977908
Dark Ages Britain https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=106417
Anarchy (Medieval) https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=987488#p987488
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Re: Ancient Greek Mod v1.0

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

A note on the Peloponnesian League army in 1.1:

Spartan led armies in the late 5th and early 4th century had two advantages over their foes: the fearsome reputation cultivated by the Spartans after Thermopylae (despite that being the only occasion that they are recorded to have fought to the death, and despite strong arguments in favor of the view that the battle was simply a crushing Persian victory...), and the fact that the Spartans and the armies they led were able to engage in some basic tactical maneuver during battle. The clearest example of the latter can be seen at the Nemea. Spartan armies faced some notable defeats at the hands of light troops at Sphacteria and Lechaeum, but their reputation didn't seem to have truly suffered until their confrontations with the Thebans at Tegyra, Leuctra, and Mantinea.

The Units
In the same order as in the in-game army list:

Greek Cavalry
Average, Some Armor, Light Spear, Swordsmen. Cavalry. Eager. 36pts.

Sparta was not known for its cavalry, so these are only of average quality and not very numerous. Spartan citizens were expected to fight in the phalanx, and rich men sometimes were required to provide substitutes of (according to Xenophon) poor quality. The allies were a more reliable source of cavalry. Even so, the Peloponnesian League list does not get access to veteran cavalry.

Extra General
30pts.

Generals are far more important in the mod than in vanilla - among other things, units can only rally when in command range of a general, and being out of command leads to higher chance of anarchy/refusal. Peloponnesian League armies can purchase more generals as a reflection of their more extensive officer corps.

Light Javelin Horse
Average, Unprotected, Light Horse. Javelins, Light Spear. Does not anarchy.

Your standard trusty light javelin horse, same as in vanilla. However, unlike in vanilla, since units can't rally outside of command range they have to work closer to friendly lines, or risk being rendered useless by a disruption.

Spartiates and Perioikoi
Superior, Protected, Offensive Spearmen. Heavy Foot. Restrained. Extra AP. 64pts

Spartans and Perioikoi fought together in the same formations by this period, no doubt due to the continued precipitous decline in the number of full Spartan citizens. Their extra AP and Restrained anarchy reflect their greater drill. Their Superior quality reflects discipline and bravery, along with the fear their reputation caused, not any great skill at weapons training, of which there is no extensive evidence of hoplites engaging in before the 330s. These units, like nearly all infantry in the mod are rated as 'Protected.' The average hoplite of the period carried aspis, spear, and wore a helmet, but otherwise armor had become relatively uncommon, as reflected in offerings, contemporary art and literature.

Hippeis
Elite, Protected, Offensive Spearmen. Heavy Foot. Restrained. Extra AP. 300 men. 59pts.

A force of picked men, who often guarded a king in battle. 'Hippeis' means horsemen, presumably men rich enough to own horses, but by this point they fought on foot as hoplites.

Allied Hoplites
Average, Protected, Offensive Spearmen. Eager. 43pts

In combat these men are equal to standard Citizen Hoplites, but they are Maneuverable and Eager (as opposed to Impetuous) to reflecting drilling under Spartan officers (which could include the 'encouragement' of beatings with sticks...). Such men as the Neodamodeis can be considered to fall into this category.

Raw Allied Hoplites
Raw, Protected, Unmaneuverable, Offensive Speramen. Eager. 30pts

As above, but even less enthusiastic about the beatings.

Cretan Archers
Superior, Unprotected, Light Foot. Bow. Does not anarchy. 39pts.

Spartans often served as mercenary hoplites, and Cretans as mercenary archers. Cretans appeared frequently in Spartan service until well after the period covered by the mod.

Thracian Peltasts
Average, Lightly Protected, Light Foot. Javelins, Light Spear, 50% Swordsmen. Does not anarchy. 30pts.

Thracians were highly valued as mercenary light infantry by all the Greek cities.

Skiritai
Above Average, Unprotected, Light Foot. Javelins, Light Spear, 50% Swordsmen. Does not anarchy. 30pts.

Admittedly a somewhat conjectural unit. The Skiritai, a subject people, are written of as serving both in the hoplite line and in the vanguard of the army accompanying the cavalry. Although nothing in a contemporary source gives any detail about their armament or tactics, the latter role suggests a form of light infantry.

Psiloi
Raw, Unprotected, Light Foot. 66% Javelins. Does not anarchy. 360 men. 18pts.

For the Spartans, these are helots, but for other cities they could be similarly enserfed or enslaved peoples, trireme crews armed as light infantry, or poorer citizens. Such men frequently outnumbered hoplites during Greek conflicts, especially during naval campaigns. Although they would be armed with a variety of weapons ranging from bow, sling, and javelin to the humble thrown stone, 66% javelin on 360 men with no impact capability gets (we hope) about the right effect.
Last edited by SnuggleBunnies on Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:30 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Ancient Greek Mod v1.0

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

Schweetness101 wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:36 pm The mod takes inspiration from Field of Glory: Immortal Fire tabletop, De Bellis Antiquitatis v3.0, Men of Bronze, Lost Battles, The Wargames Research Group: Armies of the Greek and Persian Wars, the blog 'A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry', and a few other sources including some Osprey Publishing material.
To that I would add:

Brill's Companion to Greek Land Warfare Beyond the Phalanx
Greek Warfare: Myths and Realities by Hans van Wees
Sparta at War by Scott M Rusch
Classical Greek Tactics by Roel Konijnendijk
Herodotus
Thucydides
Xenophon - Anabasis and Hellenika
Last edited by SnuggleBunnies on Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ancient Greek Mod v1.0

Post by Athos1660 »

Schweetness101 wrote: Ruleset changes include anarchy charges and refusals (...)
Ancient Greek armies being inclined to 'anarchy charges and refusals' sound really surprising to me (at least before the hellenistic period).
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Re: Ancient Greek Mod v1.0

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

Athos1660 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:54 pm
Schweetness101 wrote: Ruleset changes include anarchy charges and refusals (...)
Ancient Greek armies being inclined to 'anarchy charges and refusals' sound really surprising to me (at least before the hellenistic period).
Ancient Greek armies, other than Spartan and some mercenary forces, were highly indisciplined. Consisting as they did of an enthusiastic but basically untrained militia with one officer/ hundreds of men, this was perhaps inevitable. Luckily for them, in battle they really only needed to move forward to attack to fulfill their role much of the time. Hellenistic armies in fact would probably be more disciplined, as a greater proportion were professional soldiers.
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Re: Ancient Greek Mod v1.0

Post by Athos1660 »

SnuggleBunnies wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:34 pm Ancient Greek armies, other than Spartan and some mercenary forces, were highly indisciplined.
An hypothesis said with the tone of an absolute certainty…
SnuggleBunnies wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:34 pm Consisting as they did of an enthusiastic but basically untrained militia with one officer/ hundreds of men, this was perhaps inevitable.
Untrained ?

It was calculated that, between the Greco-Persian Wars (499 BC) and the Battle of Chaeronea (338 BC), Athens has been in a state of war more than 2 years out of 3. And during this time, no peace lasted ten years. And when Athens was at war, the whole Greek world was at war.

Not to mention the military training of the young men during the ephebeia.

‘Polemos gave birth to the world. Polemos rules the world’.

Imho Greek citizens accepted discipline in their hoplite phalanx (and cav and LF units as well), as their City State, life and freedom and those of their fellow Citizens were at stakes. Rather educated ppl. Small city states, citizens knowing each other.

PS : I guess I like how Sparta vs the other Greeks are balanced in Vanilla game.

PS 2 : A sophisticated mod for the FoG2 series is always a good piece of news, whatever the subject is (walking dead, Sparta...) so Congrats, guys :-)
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Re: Ancient Greek Mod v1.0

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

Athos1660 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:07 pm An hypothesis said with the tone of an absolute certainty…
This is not some radical fringe idea that I came up with. A lot of more recent literature is pretty clear on this. If you want sources I can suggest books etc.
Untrained ?

It was calculated that, between the Greco-Persian Wars (499 BC) and the Battle of Chaeronea (338 BC), Athens has been in a state of war more than 2 years out of 3. And during this time, no peace lasted ten years. And when Athens was at war, the whole Greek world was at war.
Experience is not the same as subjecting yourself to training.
Not to mention the military training of the young men during the ephebeia.
Not exactly, see here from a prof in the field:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/ ... tizens_do/
Imho Greek citizens accepted discipline in their hoplite phalanx (and cav and LF units as well), as their City State, life and freedom and those of their fellow Citizens were at stakes. Rather educated ppl. Small city states, citizens knowing each other.
This is not the same as formal training allowing maneuver. I agree that the political cohesion of hoplite armies was valuable. See another post from the same guy on hoplite training:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/ ... ssical_or/

Several of the books mentioned above go over this stuff too. Most Greeks were largely amateurs at war, or at least lacking in the modern institutions of war - training camps, tactical manuals, formal officer structure, etc. That doesn't mean they were bad at war, but we should adjust our vision of what they were capable of.

In-game, the practical effect of the anarchy stats is that it's hard to maneuver a unit into an auto drop flanking position when the enemy is *right there in front of them.* Spartan units are more capable of such patience. Refusal makes it harder to force engagements with trash units. Even with these rules, we have *massively more* control over armies in the mod than IRL.
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Re: Ancient Greek Mod v1.0

Post by Athos1660 »

So much talk, but so few primary sources/strong evidences...
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Re: Ancient Greek Mod v1.0

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

Athos1660 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:23 pm So much talk, but so few primary sources/strong evidences...
First of all, I've read at least the basics - Herodotus, Thucydides, Anabasis and Hellenika. Second, I cited a guy on the internet because a) it's on the internet and it's free b) because he's a prof in the field. If you want to read the secondary sources, check out the Brill's Companion, the Van Wees volume, Krentz, Hodkinson, the Rusch volume. These are all knowledgeable people working off of the primary sources.

Edit: Van Wees is where I stand, other people tend toward Bardunias views. I agree with Bardunias on his vision of Archaic warfare, but I really don't put as much stock into Othismos as he does. Both, however, agree on the untrained amateur nature of most Greek armies.
Last edited by SnuggleBunnies on Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ancient Greek Mod v1.0

Post by Athos1660 »

SnuggleBunnies wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:27 pm
Athos1660 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:23 pm So much talk, but so few primary sources/strong evidences...
First of all, I've read at least the basics - Herodotus, Thucydides, Anabasis and Hellenika. Second, I cited a guy on the internet because a) it's on the internet and it's free b) because he's a prof in the field. If you want to read the secondary sources, check out the Brill's Companion, the Van Wees volume, Krentz, Hodkinson, the Rusch volume. These are all knowledgeable people working off of the primary sources.
PS : I was adding this to my previous post : the comment is not against you personally, it is about the 'Professors' and anyone who state definitive statements about such unknown civilisations with so few evidences.
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Re: Ancient Greek Mod v1.0

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

Athos1660 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:32 pm PS : I was adding this to my previous post : the comment is not against you personally, it is about the 'Professors' and anyone who state definitive statements about such unknown civilisations with so few evidences.
Fair, sorry if I got defensive. I agree that it's difficult to be definitive, and that any such focused mod is going to have to take an interpretation that not all will agree with. That said, I've read extensively on the subject, and feel pretty confident in these views overall, though of course there is always wiggle room...
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Re: Ancient Greek Mod v1.0

Post by ahuyton »

Excellent mod, this really captures the feel of hoplite warfare, at least as we know it from Thucydides. I especially liked the anarchy rules, which take away some control and the more chess-like features of FoG (I have nothing against this aspect of FoG2, let me add). The charging hoplites, ignoring their chance to block a flank attack, were very atmospheric. Well done and thanks for the no doubt extensive work it required. I am looking forward to trying it multiplayer.
Last edited by ahuyton on Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ancient Greek Mod v1.0

Post by SnuggleBunnies »

ahuyton wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:41 pm
Thanks Alan, we're pleased with what we have so far but are now in the stage of balancing points and refining mechanics before considering a release as an in-game download, so any feedback would be appreciated. Let me know if you want a game.
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Re: Ancient Greek Mod v1.0

Post by ahuyton »

Jack, I have set up a game for us, pw 1234. My play may be a bit sporadic this month so I hope that you won't mind. I am very interested to see how you play it.
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Re: Ancient Greek Mod v1.0

Post by Geffalrus »

This is very exciting. Can't wait to see how the Anarchy mechanic plays out in practice. :D
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Re: Ancient Greek Mod v1.0

Post by Schweetness101 »

v1.1 Changelist:

Rules: (largely done to help out Spartans who are underpowered a bit in 1.0)
-1CT for non light infantry of average or lower quality losing a close combat round to superior or above
Removed reduced double drops from alt mod
Removed modest slowing of non-light infantry combat from alt mod
Removed 2/3v1 advantage from alt mod

Unit Changes:
Psiloi get Light Spear
Mercenary Hoplites are now above average and 52pts
Impetuous Anarchy foot will pursue.

Army List changes
removed superior hoplites from non-Spartan lists *kind of an experimental rebalancing thing
Added Sacred Band to Carthage
Added Mercenary Hoplites to Black Sea Greeks list

next update will likely include more peripheral army lists, and perhaps breaking up the core lists by time period, but we aren't set on doing that yet. The update is available at the same link, just a new folder.
My Mods:
Ancient Greek https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=977908#p977908
Dark Ages Britain https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=106417
Anarchy (Medieval) https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=987488#p987488
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Re: Ancient Greek Mod v1.1

Post by neil123 »

Hi

any chance you double checking the files in this mod - I installed this and the dark age mod but neither worked. They did not turn up in the campaigns menu (or am I miss understanding what they do). I did try re-downloads, and to prove I was installing correctly installed the TT Mod in "Campaigns" and it worked as expected.

Thanks in advance, let me know if you want more info
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