Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

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PeterThePainter
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by PeterThePainter »

The battle is set up and the swirling mists of Barnet await edb1815.

PW 1471
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by edb1815 »

Great I will pick it up. Just downloaded the scenario.

BTW - As a Gunners supporter I get the joke!
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by PeterThePainter »

Congratulations you are having a good season, just reward for keeping faith in a good manager. My daughter was a big football fan and I got tickets from a (then) work colleague to take her to Highbury, back in February 2002. We saw Arsenal knock Chelsea out the FA cup, great game, great atmosphere and a cracking goal from Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink. I don't think most of the people we were sitting amongst appreciated that goal as much as I did though! I should point out I was strictly neutral but it was a good goal.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by edb1815 »

The Battle of Barnet is underway. Hastings Battle is being overwhelmed by Lancastrians appearing out of the mists.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by PeterThePainter »

Not sure about the wisdom of posting screenshots when we are fighting in the fog, but in the spirit of openness here is the Lancastrian view of their right flank. Some effective (lucky?) early shooting caused disruptions before the melees began. Partly mitigated by a miss click by me, impetuous levies or time for a new laptop?

Interesting use of limited control by Stockwell Pete to force us to adopt a historical approach to the battle.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by stockwellpete »

While this campaign has been in process, I have been updating a few things in the text campaign to remover errors and make things a bit clearer. I will issue an updated version of the text campaign once we have finished.

I have also made an adjustment to the Towton scenario, which I think was tilted slightly towards the Lancastrians, when it should slightly favour the Yorkists. I did a couple of solo games in HotSeat and the Lancastrians won both of them. They also won in this campaign. So 2 of the Lancastrian men-at-arms units will be changed into ordinary billmen units.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by PeterThePainter »

Barnet, Lancastrian Turn 7.

As my right wing continues to collapse the left battle of the Yorkist army a wave of panic sweeps the centre battle of the Lancastrian line; are some of the Lancastrians changing sides? What an army commanded by two of the Neville family, recently supporters of the House of York, where would the idea that someone might change sides come from?

A Fragged unit broke and two steady units disrupted so it could have been worse. We will see what the long term consequences are. Stockwell Pete certainly likes to keep us on our toes. For the moment the Lancastrians lead 20-8.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by PeterThePainter »

stockwellpete wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 9:58 am While this campaign has been in process, I have been updating a few things in the text campaign to remover errors and make things a bit clearer. I will issue an updated version of the text campaign once we have finished.

I have also made an adjustment to the Towton scenario, which I think was tilted slightly towards the Lancastrians, when it should slightly favour the Yorkists. I did a couple of solo games in HotSeat and the Lancastrians won both of them. They also won in this campaign. So 2 of the Lancastrian men-at-arms units will be changed into ordinary billmen units.
I do not recall either side do anything spectacular or silly in our battle which might have dramatically affected the result. No doubt some of the melee results were unexpected but again I do not recall advantaged units suffering a double drop, maybe my opponent recalls differently, I find I remember surprise results going against me more than surprise results going in my favour!

I will point out that one of the Lancastrian MAA units did not take part in the battle they retreated to the rear with their commander and even then I think I had more MAA available than the Yorkists, certainly until the Yorkist reinforcements arrived.

I am aware that the armies start Towton close together, to both prevent the Lancastrians falling back without cohesion tests, and also so that the Yorkist archery is at short range from the start, but this almost forces the Lancastrians to begin melees from the very first move. That seems to favour the House of Lancaster if they have better melee troops (MAA).

So I think I didn't feel during the game that the Lancastrian's were the underdogs so the changes seem justified.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by stockwellpete »

PeterThePainter wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:13 pm Barnet, Lancastrian Turn 7.

As my right wing continues to collapse the left battle of the Yorkist army a wave of panic sweeps the centre battle of the Lancastrian line; are some of the Lancastrians changing sides? What an army commanded by two of the Neville family, recently supporters of the House of York, where would the idea that someone might change sides come from?
In the real battle, the Yorkist left was routed by the Lancastrian right and was pursued for some considerable distance. Then those Lancastrians re-grouped and returned to the battle. However, the Lancastrians in the centre thought that this returning group were going to attack them, not the Yorkists, and that treachery was going to occur. So, I have tried to represent this incident in the battle, which happened because of the thick fog, by having this wave of uncertainty ripple through the Lancastrian centre. The effect varies from battle to battle and it sounds as if you were hit quite hard by it this time.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by PeterThePainter »

Turn 10 at Barnet.

Dispatch from the Lancastrian Lines:

"Our left is gone, our centre is going and Richard Neville has fallen in combat. The Yorkists lead 40 -31. Pray for Montagu and our right to emerge from the mists and grab victory from the jaws of defeat."
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by PeterThePainter »

Turn 12 at Barnet:

The House of York leads (44 % Lancastrians routed v 43 % Yorkists routed) but the lead is slender and as units are worn down by combat will autobreaks, or routs by adjacent units, start to play a big part? The Lancastrian right wing is now battling the Yorkist right wing along a line at right angles to the original line of battle.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by PeterThePainter »

Turn 15 at Barnet:

The House of Lancaster leads (54 % Lancastrians routed v 55 % Yorkists routed).Well this has been close. I can't see us getting another 3 turns in before one or other of us exceeds 60%, perhaps even both of us!
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by PeterThePainter »

The Battle of Barnet finished on Turn 16 with 67% of the Yorkists routed against 58% of the Lancastrians. A bloodbath in the fog which could have gone either way.

I felt the Lancastrian numerical advantage of 700/800 men, at the start, carried through to the end, despite the cohesion check shock which affected the centre of the Lancastrian line. This may well have swung the battle to the House of Lancaster. There were no subtle tactics both right wings took advantage of overlapping their direct opponents to get flank attacks in and win their sector and then both armies turned towards what had been the centre to continue slugging it out. Towards the end it was not so much a question of winning the combats but winning them before you autobroke and triggered off cohesion checks in neighbouring units.

I only recall one general falling during the battle - Richard Neville Earl of Warwick - the others lived to fight another day. Well played to my opponent, many more games like that and I will be a nervous wreck.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by Karvon »

Tewkesbury (May 1471)

Lancastrians – choose 3 commanders, one must be the royal character Prince Edward of Westminster, otherwise another royal character must be chosen,

Yorkists – choose 3 commanders, one must be the royal characters Edward Plantagenet, Earl of March, if he is still available, otherwise another royal character must be chosen.

Lancastrian Commander Karvon

Yorkist Commander angusosborne

Outcomes

1) If the Lancastrians win both Barnet and Tewkesbury then the Yorkists are overthrown and a Lancastrian is restored to the throne. Succession event. Go to episode 22.
2) If the Lancastrians win Barnet only then the Yorkists retain control of the Crown. Go to episode 24.     
3) If the Lancastrians win Tewkesbury only then go to episode 20.

Current Standings
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by Karvon »

Lancastrian Commanders

Prince Edward of Westminster
Jasper Tudor
John Neville
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Re: stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by stockwellpete »

A few things for this morning . . .

Firstly, I have just been tracking the fortunes of the monarch in our campaign. Henry VI came to the throne before his first birthday in 1422 and starts our campaign as the king. In 1461, there is a very brief period of dual power before his control is re-established after the Lancastrian victory at Towton. Then, after two successful rebellion battles in 1465, the Yorkist claimant Richard Plantagenet takes the Crown from Henry VI and he is still ruling at the time the battles of Barnet and Tewkesbury take place in 1471. If the Lancastrians win at Tewkesbury then Henry VI will re-take control of the Crown and rule until his death in 1483. The idea is that each campaign will generate a different alternative history for the period 1455-87.

Secondly, I have noticed a weakness in the way that I have written the campaign towards the end. This is actually the first time that I have been able to play-test it right the way through. If the Lancastrians also win at Tewkesbury in the next battle in our campaign, it means we move on to a (hypothetical) episode 22 at Gloucester . . .

EPISODE TWENTY-TWO 1485: GLOUCESTER
Yorkist rebellion battle (July 1485)
Lancastrians – choose 1 commander, Yorkists – choose 1 commander.
Outcomes
1) Draw/Lancastrian victory – Lancastrians retain control of the Crown. Go to episode 24.
2) Yorkist victory – Yorkists secure the Crown. Succession event. End of campaign.


If you look at the outcomes, a Yorkshire victory in this rebellion battle means the campaign has ended without Bosworth Field or Stoke Field. I think this is very lame and anti-climatic. It would have been better if the Yorkist victory outcome said . . .

2) Yorkist victory – Yorkists secure the Crown. Succession event. Go to episode 23.

That way you will get both Bosworth and Stoke in the campaign. If both teams are happy then we could make the change now. If not, I will change it for the updated text campaign that I will issue once we are finished. Both battles are balanced in favour of the Lancastrians, particularly Stoke Field. Any thoughts on this please? The final decision will be up to Karvon.

Thirdly, as we are getting near the end now, I would appreciate any feedback from you all. How have you found the battles? Towton has already been re-balanced, but are there any others that I need to look at? How did you find the pursuit rules? Did they add an interesting extra ingredient to the game? Is the text campaign clear enough? Is there any way that it might be improved? Once I have updated everything, I will be available for a single player contest if anyone is interested.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by Karvon »

I have no issues with changing the flow you've designed.

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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by stockwellpete »

Karvon wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:25 am I have no issues with changing the flow you've designed.

Karvon
OK then. Let's see what the others say. :wink:
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by PeterThePainter »

stockwellpete wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:27 am
Karvon wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:25 am I have no issues with changing the flow you've designed.

Karvon
OK then. Let's see what the others say. :wink:
I think the revised ending is an improvement on the original ending of that particular branch of the campaign. I will let you have some further thoughts on the battles I have played over the next few days.
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Re: Stockwellpete's War of the Roses Campaign

Post by angusosborne »

I haven't checked in for a few days sorry and it looks like I have a battle to fight. Have you set up the challenge Karvon?
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